Cracked TII turret

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Michael Kenny
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Cracked TII turret

Post by Michael Kenny » 14 Aug 2019 23:09

TigerII-W turret crackled (17).jpg

That is a major plate failure. I know nothing about the photo so others might be more help on the when & Where.
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Alejandro_
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Re: Cracked TII turret

Post by Alejandro_ » 15 Aug 2019 23:15

That is a major plate failure. I know nothing about the photo so others might be more help on the when & Wher
Very interesting Michael. That looks like a large penetration. I would think the cause was a 100/122mm impact. Just for comparison a Panther hit by a IS-2 in the hull.

Image

Also, I assume it happened against the Soviets simply because AFAIK is the only photo available. Cameras were more common with Allied soldiers, thus I would expect more pictures to have surfaced.

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Gorque
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Re: Cracked TII turret

Post by Gorque » 15 Aug 2019 23:35

It appears to have been hit numerous times. Target practice?

Michael Kenny
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Re: Cracked TII turret

Post by Michael Kenny » 15 Aug 2019 23:45

I doubt it. There might be hits on the hull above wheels 1 & 3 but no others. There are marks but it is obviously some time after it was hit and rust is present. If it was a test shoot there would be many strikes. The suspension appears to have collapsed so it burned at some time.

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Gorque
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Re: Cracked TII turret

Post by Gorque » 16 Aug 2019 03:01

Hi Michael:

You're more the expert than I am on this subject, so I'll defer to your expertise on this matter. :D

critical mass
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Re: Cracked TII turret

Post by critical mass » 16 Aug 2019 18:38

If the T2 hull was burned down, then the E grade low alloyed 80mm thick side plates will be subject to secondary heat exposure, with embrittling slow air cool. Whether or not the crack is a surface crack or a through crack is not clear from the photograph. Only the latter would constitute a case for a major plate defect.

The panther glacis hit is ductile failure, like the vast majority of panther glacis hits, if my sample of 76 impacts on photo evidence is to be judged as representative sample.

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MarioL
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Re: Cracked TII turret

Post by MarioL » 17 Aug 2019 21:36

Its the Tiger II of s.Pz.Abt. 506 knocked out near Wardin.

The crack is also visible in the early photo, so i would tend to combat damage and not target practice.

Image
Image

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Gorque
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Re: Cracked TII turret

Post by Gorque » 18 Aug 2019 11:53

So I went searching for further information on the above tank and found this. I'm not sure if it is the same one pictured, but thought I'd paste the relevant text and link thereto for expert analysis:
Another King Tiger tank was knocked out by direct armour piercing rounds near the Belgian town of Wardin. This one belonged to Schwere SS-Panzer-Abteilung 501. Two American armour piercing shells managed to penetrate the side of the vehicle, one in the middle of the right hand side of the main chassis and another just above it in the middle lower section of the side of the turret.
http://tank-photographs.s3-website-eu-w ... tiger.html

I also found this snippet and am not sure if it is true or not:
Many King Tiger tanks were wrongly claimed as destroyed by various different American armoured units. This also included fighter-bombers of the United States air force and the RAF. Whenever you look at a black-and-white photograph of a knocked out Tiger II tank, have a look at the position of its main gun.

If it is pointing upwards then it usually means that the tank has been abandoned by its crew and sabotaged to prevent it falling into American hands and be used against them. The position of the gun barrel indicates that it is locked in the fully recoil position. The gun has been 'spiked' by its crew so it cannot be fired again.

Michael Kenny
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Re: Cracked TII turret

Post by Michael Kenny » 18 Aug 2019 13:01

Gorque wrote:
18 Aug 2019 11:53

I also found this snippet and am not sure if it is true or not:
If it is pointing upwards then it usually means that the tank has been abandoned by its crew and sabotaged to prevent it falling into American hands and be used against them. The position of the gun barrel indicates that it is locked in the fully recoil position. The gun has been 'spiked' by its crew so it cannot be fired again.
Not correct. Extreme heat will do that unaided. It also happens when a tank burns out. Also that TII gun is not in the recoil position (the gun barrel would seem much smaller as it has recoiled inside the turret and stays there) so it does not apply at all to this example. This is what full recoil looks like

https://i.redd.it/nc51smyfquy01.jpg

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Re: Cracked TII turret

Post by seppw » 18 Aug 2019 15:32

MarioL wrote:
17 Aug 2019 21:36
Its the Tiger II of s.Pz.Abt. 506 knocked out near Wardin.

The crack is also visible in the early photo, so i would tend to combat damage and not target practice.

Image
Image
I was going to write this was probably due to sub-zero ambient temperatures, but you're photo proves it. Thanks.
Michael Kenny wrote:
18 Aug 2019 13:01
Gorque wrote:
18 Aug 2019 11:53

I also found this snippet and am not sure if it is true or not:
If it is pointing upwards then it usually means that the tank has been abandoned by its crew and sabotaged to prevent it falling into American hands and be used against them. The position of the gun barrel indicates that it is locked in the fully recoil position. The gun has been 'spiked' by its crew so it cannot be fired again.
Not correct. Extreme heat will do that unaided. It also happens when a tank burns out. Also that TII gun is not in the recoil position (the gun barrel would seem much smaller as it has recoiled inside the turret and stays there) so it does not apply at all to this example. This is what full recoil looks like

https://i.redd.it/nc51smyfquy01.jpg
So the gunner was trying to take down a plane that happened to be exactly at the Tiger II's 6 o'clock position... :lol:

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Gorque
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Re: Cracked TII turret

Post by Gorque » 18 Aug 2019 16:57

Michael Kenny wrote:
18 Aug 2019 13:01
Not correct. Extreme heat will do that unaided. It also happens when a tank burns out. Also that TII gun is not in the recoil position (the gun barrel would seem much smaller as it has recoiled inside the turret and stays there) so it does not apply at all to this example. This is what full recoil looks like

https://i.redd.it/nc51smyfquy01.jpg
Hi Michael:

Cool photo in the link.Thanks for sharing. :thumbsup:

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Takao
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Re: Cracked TII turret

Post by Takao » 19 Aug 2019 01:06

Michael Kenny wrote:
18 Aug 2019 13:01
Gorque wrote:
18 Aug 2019 11:53

I also found this snippet and am not sure if it is true or not:
If it is pointing upwards then it usually means that the tank has been abandoned by its crew and sabotaged to prevent it falling into American hands and be used against them. The position of the gun barrel indicates that it is locked in the fully recoil position. The gun has been 'spiked' by its crew so it cannot be fired again.
Not correct. Extreme heat will do that unaided. It also happens when a tank burns out. Also that TII gun is not in the recoil position (the gun barrel would seem much smaller as it has recoiled inside the turret and stays there) so it does not apply at all to this example. This is what full recoil looks like

https://i.redd.it/nc51smyfquy01.jpg
While the main gun is not in full recoil...neither is it in battery. It appears to be in about 1/2 to 2/3rds recoil.

Similar to these wrecks
Image
Image

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T. A. Gardner
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Re: Cracked TII turret

Post by T. A. Gardner » 19 Aug 2019 02:49

Well, the cracking on that turret probably is just badly made armor. Here's another case like that.

Image

Could be a combination of being hit right on an edge of a seam and the quality of the plate itself. It might also be that two shots landed very close together and caused it.

critical mass
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Re: Cracked TII turret

Post by critical mass » 19 Aug 2019 14:02

I think the case is clear now. The gun barrel indeed is at approx. max. recoil position (limited to 580mm for the KwK43 firing Pzgr39 at max. V0=1034m/s, for mean new gun velocity. At legend or average service velocity the recoil is shorter).
MK pointed to a picture with TIGER2 showing a more severe type of recoil, where the outer jacket, which itselfe is longer than 1m completely disappeared. This is only possible if the barrel moved past its recoil limit (f.e., when the recoil limiting blocks are destroyed first) with the gun moving through the fighting compartment. The picture here shows approx. max recoil, instead. This points towards the likelyhood of the AFV beeing abandoned by the crew and rendered unservicable, a somewhat standart practice.
Whether or not the vehicle burned is relevant to the onset of brittle failure types. If the crew set it on fire, the slow air cool will create temper britlleness. Impacts from subsequent target practice shootings, may also exhibit brittle types of failure, if undertaken in cool ambient temperatures. This is true even for normal, unaffected plate due to the rather high ductile-to-brittle transition temperature of the TIGER Ausf. B low alloy steel used for armor. The effect, however, may be reinforced by previous burn of the tank.

The impact size of the hit is not realistically identified. This would only be possible if the failure is ductile holing and the projectile is intact. If the projectile breaks up, the hole can be mishaped considerably even in ductile holing, let alone brittle type of failures. In such cases, the best indicator of the attacking cal size are projectile remains recovered behind the plate.

One final note: Brittle failure does not equate always with low ballistic resistence.

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Re: Cracked TII turret

Post by Avalancheon » 20 Aug 2019 08:21

critical mass wrote:
19 Aug 2019 14:02
This points towards the likelyhood of the AFV beeing abandoned by the crew and rendered unservicable, a somewhat standart practice.
So in your opinion, the tank was abandoned by its crew, and then shot at by Allied troops sometime later?
critical mass wrote:
19 Aug 2019 14:02
Whether or not the vehicle burned is relevant to the onset of brittle failure types. If the crew set it on fire, the slow air cool will create temper britlleness. Impacts from subsequent target practice shootings, may also exhibit brittle types of failure, if undertaken in cool ambient temperatures. This is true even for normal, unaffected plate due to the rather high ductile-to-brittle transition temperature of the TIGER Ausf. B low alloy steel used for armor. The effect, however, may be reinforced by previous burn of the tank.
Can we say for certain that this tank was burned, though? At first glance, it doesn't look all that scorched...

This could simply be another case of cold weather causing the armor to crack, as we saw in the Kubinka tests. This was a noted problem with the nickel and molybdenum free armor, as you pointed out.
critical mass wrote:
19 Aug 2019 14:02
The impact size of the hit is not realistically identified. This would only be possible if the failure is ductile holing and the projectile is intact. If the projectile breaks up, the hole can be mishaped considerably even in ductile holing, let alone brittle type of failures. In such cases, the best indicator of the attacking cal size are projectile remains recovered behind the plate.

One final note: Brittle failure does not equate always with low ballistic resistence.
When a projectile experiences breakup, doesn't the penetration mode automatically change from ductile to brittle? How can the projectile still be making a ductile hole if its been smashed up?

Anyway, these impact holes looks like they came from a larger caliber weapon. Probably a 90mm gun, or something like that.

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