Classification of a wreck

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Ulater
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Re: Classification of a wreck

Post by Ulater » 11 Oct 2019 21:46

Yoozername wrote:
11 Oct 2019 21:44
Here is a list of Tiger I maintenance and repair times and who is expected to do it. Note that the repair for the transmission, which required removing turret and gutting out much of the internals, went to Vienna. This is mentioned in many books on Tiger tanks. In the link in Panzerworld, it suggests that much of the Homeland Repair is done at the manufacturing plants. This might be true for other Panzers. I have read that these Homeland Repairs would have a lag getting wherever they were going, as it was SOP to wait for enough of them built up to justify that trip.

listiger.jpg
Not homeland repair. That is explicitly companies, in context of the source given by Kenny. There were, I think, 4 or 5 other such depots that were under army control.

Yoozername
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Re: Classification of a wreck

Post by Yoozername » 11 Oct 2019 21:49

Ulater wrote:
11 Oct 2019 21:46
Yoozername wrote:
11 Oct 2019 21:44
Here is a list of Tiger I maintenance and repair times and who is expected to do it. Note that the repair for the transmission, which required removing turret and gutting out much of the internals, went to Vienna. This is mentioned in many books on Tiger tanks. In the link in Panzerworld, it suggests that much of the Homeland Repair is done at the manufacturing plants. This might be true for other Panzers. I have read that these Homeland Repairs would have a lag getting wherever they were going, as it was SOP to wait for enough of them built up to justify that trip.

listiger.jpg
Not homeland repair. That is explicitly companies, in context of the source given by Kenny. There were, I think, 4 or 5 other such depots that were under army control.
Thanks. Vienna is about 800 Km from Kassel.

Michael Kenny
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Re: Classification of a wreck

Post by Michael Kenny » 11 Oct 2019 21:50

Ulater wrote:
11 Oct 2019 21:41



Well, dont leave me hanging, Im interested.
If you try and find out then the problems will reveal themselves. Consider it a learning experience and believe me you will be puzzled.

You said earlier:
And nobody cares about unit totals, not me, not Zetterling, as he is using a single aggregate document that has the numbers quite clearly given
Zetterling does care about Unit totals Cares so much he devotes 92 pages in his book listing just the Panzer Division Unit totals. The unit totals are the only measure of a Units daily losses. It is not a definitive guide but it sets an upper limit-if the figures are accurate I really am amazed anyone could dismiss this type of count as not worth caring about. It is fundamental information for anyone trying to work out actual losses.

Ulater
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Re: Classification of a wreck

Post by Ulater » 11 Oct 2019 21:58

Michael Kenny wrote:
11 Oct 2019 21:50
Ulater wrote:
11 Oct 2019 21:41



Well, dont leave me hanging, Im interested.
If you try and find out then the problems will reveal themselves. Consider it a learning experience and believe me you will be puzzled.

You said earlier:
And nobody cares about unit totals, not me, not Zetterling, as he is using a single aggregate document that has the numbers quite clearly given
Zetterling does care about Unit totals Cares so much he devotes 92 pages in his book listing just the Panzer Division Unit totals. The unit totals are the only measure of a Units daily losses. It is not a definitive guide but it sets an upper limit-if the figures are accurate I really am amazed anyone could dismiss this type of count as not worth caring about. It is fundamental information for anyone trying to work out actual losses.
So you will leave me hanging. Thanks.

And as I posted two pages from that book (instead of the whole book), where you somehow pretended to see individual battle claims, or unit totals and aggregate reports being used at the same time, yes I can say that neither I nor Zetterling cared about unit totals in those two pages. MIssdirections again?

Yoozername
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Re: Classification of a wreck

Post by Yoozername » 11 Oct 2019 22:03

Michael Kenny wrote:
10 Oct 2019 16:09
Ulater wrote:
10 Oct 2019 15:36

Random pictures and your completely unreliable word doesnt mean anything to me.

Quite the opposite my good man. These Tigers are relevant

In the July 5 -Sept 21 1943 period you use the number of wrecks being carried by sPz Abt 503 was excessive
.......... fit/in repair
July 10...... 22/21
July 20..... 15/25
Aug 31..... 9/42
Sept 6..... 7/34
Sept 13...... 11/29
Maybe this may clarify your static data...they were retreating and trying to drag back Tigers. No one was going to send a train or transporter forward during the retreat. Simply put, you look at things through a narrow perception.
retreat.jpg
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Michael Kenny
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Re: Classification of a wreck

Post by Michael Kenny » 11 Oct 2019 22:07

Ulater wrote:
11 Oct 2019 21:58

So you will leave me hanging. Thanks.
If you were really interested you would have tried. I know for certain you have the numbers to hand so no one can claim I am trolling you.
Ulater wrote:
11 Oct 2019 21:58
And as I posted two pages from that book (instead of the whole book), where you somehow pretended to see individual battle claims, or unit totals and aggregate reports being used at the same time, yes I can say that neither I nor Zetterling cared about unit totals in those two pages. MIssdirections again?
Already explained to you in great detail. Your ignorance is wilful.

Ulater
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Re: Classification of a wreck

Post by Ulater » 11 Oct 2019 22:08

Yoozername wrote:
11 Oct 2019 21:49
Ulater wrote:
11 Oct 2019 21:46
Yoozername wrote:
11 Oct 2019 21:44
Here is a list of Tiger I maintenance and repair times and who is expected to do it. Note that the repair for the transmission, which required removing turret and gutting out much of the internals, went to Vienna. This is mentioned in many books on Tiger tanks. In the link in Panzerworld, it suggests that much of the Homeland Repair is done at the manufacturing plants. This might be true for other Panzers. I have read that these Homeland Repairs would have a lag getting wherever they were going, as it was SOP to wait for enough of them built up to justify that trip.

listiger.jpg
Not homeland repair. That is explicitly companies, in context of the source given by Kenny. There were, I think, 4 or 5 other such depots that were under army control.
Thanks. Vienna is about 800 Km from Kassel.
I know its a largely semantical difference.

They were in Magdeburg, Breslau, Konigsberg, Mainz and Wien. According to the book, they served to temporarily accomodate tanks so heavily damaged or broken down in such numbers that independent army repair units or integral division units were incapable of dealing with them, and from there they were forwarded to manufacturers if needed. That was in 1941.

In 1942 another (lower) level of depots was created in Riga, Smolensk and Dnjepropetrovsk, because current system of those depots wasnt capable of dealing especially with damaged wheeled vehicles, estimated to be about 300.000 in february 1942.

Repairing the Panzers V. 1, pg. 127.

Also, simple transmission removal is a bit different to a repair of penetration with subsequent transmission destruction.

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peeved
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Re: Classification of a wreck

Post by peeved » 11 Oct 2019 22:12

Tom from Cornwall wrote:
11 Oct 2019 20:00
Hi,

Looking at 16 Panzer Division's reporting on 14 September 1943 during battle of Salerno they submit a report that says:
Totalausfall von 11 Panzern, Gesamtausfall von 30 Panzers und Sturmgeschützen.
Can anyone explain what the different classifications mean? "Totalausfall" = total loss, OK, but what about "Gesamtausfall"?
Am no native German speaker but to my understanding the sentence translates to "Total loss of 11 tanks; Total of losses 30 tanks and assault guns"; The former including tanks permanently lost during the report time period; The latter all tank and Stugs relegated from runner to non-runner status during the report time period: Permanent losses, short-term repairs, long-term repairs, sent Heim ins Reich etc.

Markus

Edit: On second thought the ending should probably read; "The former including tanks permanently lost during the report time period; The latter all tanks and Stugs relegated from runner to non-runner status and non-runners permanently lost during the report time period: Permanent losses, short-term repairs, long-term repairs, sent Heim ins Reich etc."
Last edited by peeved on 11 Oct 2019 22:30, edited 1 time in total.

Michael Kenny
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Re: Classification of a wreck

Post by Michael Kenny » 11 Oct 2019 22:14

Yoozername wrote:
11 Oct 2019 22:03



Maybe this may clarify your static data...they were retreating and trying to drag back Tigers. No one was going to send a train or transporter forward during the retreat. Simply put, you look at things through a narrow perception.
The key fact is they are battle casualties that were not repaired. If they were seriously damaged enough to be sent for homeland repair then they were, by the Germans own definition, 'write-offs'. Any tank sent for homeland repair was written off by the Unit. Also any tank damaged in battle but never repaired is a combat casualty, a total loss. Claiming that a tank might have been able to be repaired does not mean you can say it was not a combat loss.

Ulater
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Re: Classification of a wreck

Post by Ulater » 11 Oct 2019 22:15

Michael Kenny wrote:
11 Oct 2019 22:07
Ulater wrote:
11 Oct 2019 21:58

So you will leave me hanging. Thanks.
If you were really interested you would have tried. I know for certain you have the numbers to hand so no one can claim I am trolling you.
Ulater wrote:
11 Oct 2019 21:58
And as I posted two pages from that book (instead of the whole book), where you somehow pretended to see individual battle claims, or unit totals and aggregate reports being used at the same time, yes I can say that neither I nor Zetterling cared about unit totals in those two pages. MIssdirections again?
Already explained to you in great detail. Your ignorance is wilful.
Well, as you said once, and I will steal that phrase from you, I am not a copying service.

And what ignorance?

There are no individual unit claims or losses used by Zetterling in that text, its a single aggregate document.

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Re: Classification of a wreck

Post by Yoozername » 11 Oct 2019 22:17

Ulater wrote:
11 Oct 2019 22:08
Yoozername wrote:
11 Oct 2019 21:49
Ulater wrote:
11 Oct 2019 21:46
Yoozername wrote:
11 Oct 2019 21:44
Here is a list of Tiger I maintenance and repair times and who is expected to do it. Note that the repair for the transmission, which required removing turret and gutting out much of the internals, went to Vienna. This is mentioned in many books on Tiger tanks. In the link in Panzerworld, it suggests that much of the Homeland Repair is done at the manufacturing plants. This might be true for other Panzers. I have read that these Homeland Repairs would have a lag getting wherever they were going, as it was SOP to wait for enough of them built up to justify that trip.

listiger.jpg
Not homeland repair. That is explicitly companies, in context of the source given by Kenny. There were, I think, 4 or 5 other such depots that were under army control.
Thanks. Vienna is about 800 Km from Kassel.
I know its a largely semantical difference.

They were in Magdeburg, Breslau, Konigsberg, Mainz and Wien. According to the book, they served to temporarily accomodate tanks so heavily damaged or broken down in such numbers that independent army repair units or integral division units were incapable of dealing with them, and from there they were forwarded to manufacturers if needed. That was in 1941.

In 1942 another (lower) level of depots was created in Riga, Smolensk and Dnjepropetrovsk, because current system of those depots wasnt capable of dealing especially with damaged wheeled vehicles, estimated to be about 300.000 in february 1942.

Repairing the Panzers V. 1, pg. 127.

Also, simple transmission removal is a bit different to a repair of penetration with subsequent transmission destruction.
Dnjepropetrovsk is mentioned in Tigers of the Death's Head -Wood.

My understanding is that the Tiger Battalions would kick back any repair, needing the turret removed, beyond the Battalion.

Panzerworld data shows Tiger I being repaired in that report.

Ulater
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Posts: 233
Joined: 09 Mar 2015 19:36
Location: Slovakia

Re: Classification of a wreck

Post by Ulater » 11 Oct 2019 22:23

Yoozername wrote:
11 Oct 2019 22:17
Ulater wrote:
11 Oct 2019 22:08
Yoozername wrote:
11 Oct 2019 21:49
Ulater wrote:
11 Oct 2019 21:46
Yoozername wrote:
11 Oct 2019 21:44
Here is a list of Tiger I maintenance and repair times and who is expected to do it. Note that the repair for the transmission, which required removing turret and gutting out much of the internals, went to Vienna. This is mentioned in many books on Tiger tanks. In the link in Panzerworld, it suggests that much of the Homeland Repair is done at the manufacturing plants. This might be true for other Panzers. I have read that these Homeland Repairs would have a lag getting wherever they were going, as it was SOP to wait for enough of them built up to justify that trip.

listiger.jpg
Not homeland repair. That is explicitly companies, in context of the source given by Kenny. There were, I think, 4 or 5 other such depots that were under army control.
Thanks. Vienna is about 800 Km from Kassel.
I know its a largely semantical difference.

They were in Magdeburg, Breslau, Konigsberg, Mainz and Wien. According to the book, they served to temporarily accomodate tanks so heavily damaged or broken down in such numbers that independent army repair units or integral division units were incapable of dealing with them, and from there they were forwarded to manufacturers if needed. That was in 1941.

In 1942 another (lower) level of depots was created in Riga, Smolensk and Dnjepropetrovsk, because current system of those depots wasnt capable of dealing especially with damaged wheeled vehicles, estimated to be about 300.000 in february 1942.

Repairing the Panzers V. 1, pg. 127.

Also, simple transmission removal is a bit different to a repair of penetration with subsequent transmission destruction.
Dnjepropetrovsk is mentioned in Tigers of the Death's Head -Wood.

My understanding is that the Tiger Battalions would kick back any repair, needing the turret removed, beyond the Battalion.

Panzerworld data shows Tiger I being repaired in that report.
There are a few pictures of Kfz. 100 with a Tiger turret lifted off the chassis in the book, what looks to be field conditions. I can look up something more concrete.

Michael Kenny
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Re: Classification of a wreck

Post by Michael Kenny » 11 Oct 2019 22:38

Ulater wrote:
11 Oct 2019 22:15

Well, as you said once, and I will steal that phrase from you, I am not a copying service.

You have the numbers. You do not need them copying for you. If you did not have them I would give you them but I know for a certain fact you have a copy.
Last edited by Michael Kenny on 11 Oct 2019 22:39, edited 1 time in total.

Ulater
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Location: Slovakia

Re: Classification of a wreck

Post by Ulater » 11 Oct 2019 22:39

In report from s.Pz.Abt,506 in september 1943, they mention tigers hit in the front which caused 3 sprung final drives. "A one centimeter deep crack was caused and oil ran out". One of the Tigers could not be repaired in Russia - so this rules out Dnjepro and it went probably to Vienna or Konigsberg.

This looks consistent with the report from 503rd, but the report also contains complaint about an important thing missing at the time of the report - the electric welder. So they would be forced to send Tigers home.


Again. s.Pz.Abt,506, january 1944:

They had 75 damaged arrivals from 20sep-31dec, 62 repaired, 6 sent home, and 7 still in workshop on 31st december 1943.

Among the repairs, the also list 15 transmissions being installed. 11 repaired, 4 new. 4 were sent to homeland. 3 had radius clutch damaged, 3 were losing oil and 10 needed something called "telecin shafts" refurbished.

Edit:

Image

Pic is low quality, but you would have to deal.

Transmission removal by itself certainly wasnt a deal big enough for an army level workshop.
Last edited by Ulater on 11 Oct 2019 22:53, edited 1 time in total.

Ulater
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Posts: 233
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Location: Slovakia

Re: Classification of a wreck

Post by Ulater » 11 Oct 2019 22:45

Michael Kenny wrote:
11 Oct 2019 22:38
Ulater wrote:
11 Oct 2019 22:15

Well, as you said once, and I will steal that phrase from you, I am not a copying service.

You have the numbers. You do not need them copying for you. If you did not have them I would give you them but I know for a certain fact you have a copy.
Well, I do not see why should I extend you any courtesy, especially when you did the same before.

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