Bad day for the Panthers.

Discussions on the vehicles used by the Axis forces. Hosted by Christian Ankerstjerne
Michael Kenny
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Re: Bad day for the Panthers.

Post by Michael Kenny » 14 Oct 2019 06:04

The Tiger left behind when the crew panicked and abandoned it was filmed. Here it is by driven by men from SRY at the 2m:0s mark

https://film.iwmcollections.org.uk/record/30319

and in the position where the fleeing crew left it:

https://youtu.be/UnmK5SYcW8Q?t=216

There was another 2 knocked out Tigers just up the road:
B6140 Tiger Rauray-vertft.jpg
Further east at Haut Bosq 4 Panthers blundered into an Infantry position and were destroyed

https://youtu.be/UnmK5SYcW8Q?t=19

You can see that one of the tanks was in that much of a hurry to escape it got stuck halfway between the road and a raised field.
Here are the same Panthers tanks some days later when they had cooled down.

https://youtu.be/Pbq1V9l-1-A?t=121
German tanks were knocked out in large numbers. Major Sale CO of 3rd CLY took a lot of panzer-wreck pics in the EPSOM area.

Sale 103777 (2)-vert.jpg
And glimpses of them in flames appear in The IWM Film Collection. These at Mouen at 3m 50s

https://film.iwmcollections.org.uk/record/848




Screen-grab from above film


Screenshot_2847.jpg

Recovery tanks had a busy busy removing these wrecks from the roads
B6519 Cheux. same location as B6322 and B6144 Pz IV 837 ARV.jpg
EPSOM was the German attempt to split the Allies and reach the beaches. Nearly always portrayed as just an attack to repulse Monty's EPSOM Offensive it was in fact a planned major Offensive designed to penetrate and push the Allies back into the sea. 2 SS Divisions were brought from Russia to lead the attack but they got nowhere. They were shot to pieces and could not break the Commonwealth front-line. Panzer losses were grievous and when it was clear the offensive had failed Rundstedt made plans to abandon Caen and retreat 6 miles further into France. He knew he was beaten and wanted to pull back whilst he still had some mobility. Hitler refused to allow it and this is what lead to the infamous outburst where, when asked by Keitel 'What shall we do', Rundstedt shouted back 'make peace you fools' and was sacked!
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Yoozername
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Re: Bad day for the Panthers.

Post by Yoozername » 14 Oct 2019 07:03

Is this a rerun? Or a 'splooge'?

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Sheldrake
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Re: Bad day for the Panthers.

Post by Sheldrake » 14 Oct 2019 10:25

Don't forget 1st July 1944 was a good day for anti tank gunners. ;)

55 Anti tank Regiment used up its stock of 6 pdr APDS ammunition that day and Sgt Hall was awarded the DCM for, among other things, man handling his 6 pdr 300 yards to stalk a German tank.

Michael Kenny
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Re: Bad day for the Panthers.

Post by Michael Kenny » 14 Oct 2019 13:29

Sheldrake wrote:
14 Oct 2019 10:25
Don't forget 1st July 1944 was a good day for anti tank gunners. ;)

55 Anti tank Regiment used up its stock of 6 pdr APDS ammunition that day and Sgt Hall was awarded the DCM for, among other things, man handling his 6 pdr 300 yards to stalk a German tank.
There is mention of 217 Battery 55 Anti tank Regiment in post no. 10

download/file.php?id=448507&t=1

Miles Krogfus
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Re: Bad day for the Panthers.

Post by Miles Krogfus » 15 Oct 2019 19:53

The superb 2018 Heimdal book (in French) "Normandie: 25-28 Juin 1944 Fontenay-Rauray Autopsie D'une Bataille" with excellent tank photos and maps, shows the results of 12 SS and 101 SS panzer losses over the days that above posts mention.
For the 9th SS, here are figures taken from that division's documents: combat fit Strm/Pz IV/Panthers on June 30th were 22/9/27, on July 2nd 19/10/19 and for July 3rd 22/11/20. These figures include short repaired Panzers returned to action.
!a Tgb.Nr.2400/44 Geheim, Lagebericht der 9.SS-Pz.Div. Hohenstaufen for 29.6.1944,12.00 Uhr bis 2.7.1944 19.00 Uhr. gives this Verluste: 10 Sturmgeschutze, 16 Panzer IV and 6 Panthers.
Last edited by Miles Krogfus on 16 Oct 2019 04:37, edited 5 times in total.

Tom from Cornwall
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Re: Bad day for the Panthers.

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 15 Oct 2019 20:03

Miles,
Miles Krogfus wrote:
15 Oct 2019 19:53
or the 9th SS here is German data: combat fit Strm/Pz IV/Panthers on June 30th were 22/9/27
It's strange that Zetterling uses these figures for 30 Jun 44 as well (quoting Fürbringer as his source) but then uses primary sources from Panzer Group West for the rest of his statistics. Does the 2018 Heimdal book give a source for those figures?

It is pretty clear that if this was a bad day for 9th SS Panzer Division's Panther bn, there had also been a few bad days for the Pz IVs and Strms of II Bn.

Regards

Tom

Michael Kenny
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Re: Bad day for the Panthers.

Post by Michael Kenny » 15 Oct 2019 20:08

Miles Krogfus wrote:
15 Oct 2019 19:53
The superb 2018 Heimdal book (in French) "Normandie: 25-28 Juin 1944 Fontenay-Rauray Autopsie D'une Bataille" with excellent tank photos and maps, shows the results of 12 SS and 101 SS panzer losses over the days that above posts mention.
For the 9th SS here is German data: combat fit Strm/Pz IV/Panthers on June 30th were 22/9/27, on July 1st 19/10/19 and for July 3rd 22/11/20. These figures include short repaired Panzers returned to action.
Ia Tgb.Nr.2400/44 Geheim, Lagebericht der 9 SS-Pz.Div. Hohenstaufen for June 29,1944 12.00 to July 2 19.00 gives this Verluste: 10 Sturmgeschutze, 16 Panzer IV and 6 Panthers.
Freds book is indeed excellent. Fred used to post here years back

memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=2851

and the best set of numbers can be found by using Furbringer, Zetterling & Wood and Dougdale. However they do not fully explain the huge drop in 9th SS tank totals for EPSOM. The record is incomplete and thus using just the published numbers undercounts the scale of the Divisions losses.

Michael Kenny
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Re: Bad day for the Panthers.

Post by Michael Kenny » 15 Oct 2019 20:15

Miles Krogfus wrote:
15 Oct 2019 19:53

For the 9th SS, here are figures taken from that division's documents: combat fit Strm/Pz IV/Panthers on June 30th were 22/9/27, on July 1st 19/10/19 and for July 3rd 22/11/20. These figures include short repaired Panzers returned to action.
Posting the June 28 numbers would show the scale of the shrinkage in vehicle totals.

Tom from Cornwall
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Re: Bad day for the Panthers.

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 15 Oct 2019 21:16

Miles Krogfus wrote:
15 Oct 2019 19:53
For the 9th SS, here are figures taken from that division's documents:
Can you give us a specific document reference? I’ve got some 9 SS Pz Div war diary files from NARA but couldn’t find those 30 Jun 44 numbers in there. It may well be that I’m overlooking the particular page that it’s on as the file is somewhat jumbled. It seems strange to me that Zetterling didn’t quote from a primary source if you say that the numbers are in there.

Regards

Tom
Last edited by Tom from Cornwall on 16 Oct 2019 19:33, edited 1 time in total.

Michael Kenny
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Re: Bad day for the Panthers.

Post by Michael Kenny » 16 Oct 2019 17:27

If you use the tank numbers for 9th SS from June 30 to July 7th then it looks like they were not badly hit by EPSOM

EPSOM is June 30 to July 2.
.............Stug/Pz IV/Panther
June..30......22/9/27 = 58
July...1.......19/10/19 = 48
July...3.......22/11/20 = 53
July...4.......20/12/35 = 67
July...6.......19/12/37 = 68
July...7.......20/15/43 = 78

But if you include the June 28 numbers the picture changes dramatically:
.............Stug/Pz IV/Panther
June..28......40/46/73 = 159
July...1.......19/10/19 = 48
July...3.......22/11/20 = 53
July...4.......20/12/35 = 67
July...6.......19/12/37 = 68
July...7.......20/15/43 = 78

Tom from Cornwall
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Re: Bad day for the Panthers.

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 16 Oct 2019 19:31

Hi Michael,

I've asked Miles Krogfus as well, as he provided the same numbers for 9th SS Pz Div's tank state on 30 June 44, but no luck so far.

Can you provide a primary source reference for the numbers for 30 June 1944? I've been looking everywhere I can, and failed to find an actual primary source that provides figures for that date. In Zetterling's first edition he only references Fürbringer. But he doesn't actually provide a source, and it looks like the latest book references Zetterling!

The closest I can find is this snip from a divisional report of 29 June 1944 (Tagesmeldung an Gen.Kdo. II.SS-Pz.Korps I a 29.6.44) (T354 R147 Folio 3789136):
9 SS Pz Div Panzerlage 29.6.44.PNG
Regards

Tom
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Michael Kenny
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Re: Bad day for the Panthers.

Post by Michael Kenny » 16 Oct 2019 20:15

Tom from Cornwall wrote:
16 Oct 2019 19:31
but no luck so far.
I tried it on ML and no luck there either. I know the people on ML have access to the original documents and it is reasonable to assume there is no official reference for the numbers given for June 30. I don't think anyone else has worked out what the June 30 numbers mean and how dramatically the picture changes if they are not able to be referenced

Michael Kenny
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Re: Bad day for the Panthers.

Post by Michael Kenny » 16 Oct 2019 20:28

Tom from Cornwall wrote:
15 Oct 2019 20:03
Does the 2018 Heimdal book give a source for those figures?
I have sent a Email to Fred about his references.

Tom from Cornwall
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Re: Bad day for the Panthers.

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 16 Oct 2019 20:40

Hi Michael,

Thanks, that's very good of you.

Regards

Tom

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Sheldrake
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Re: Bad day for the Panthers.

Post by Sheldrake » 16 Oct 2019 23:36

Michael Kenny wrote:
14 Oct 2019 13:29
Sheldrake wrote:
14 Oct 2019 10:25
Don't forget 1st July 1944 was a good day for anti tank gunners. ;)

55 Anti tank Regiment used up its stock of 6 pdr APDS ammunition that day and Sgt Hall was awarded the DCM for, among other things, man handling his 6 pdr 300 yards to stalk a German tank.
There is mention of 217 Battery 55 Anti tank Regiment in post no. 10

download/file.php?id=448507&t=1
Here is an extract from Notes from Recent Operations Appendix J (?) to RA 21 AG Aug 1944. The tanks get a mention...
Notes on recent ops 3B .jpg
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