Bad day for the Panthers.

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Miles Krogfus
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Re: Bad day for the Panthers.

Post by Miles Krogfus » 17 Oct 2019 19:24

Herbert Furbringer, 9.SS-Panzer-Division, Editions Heimdal 1984 page 286 posted below.
Remember that when the division detrained in late June 1944 at Paris, after road travel to the combat zone many Panzers needed technical touching up and other repairs (short term especially).
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Last edited by Miles Krogfus on 17 Oct 2019 20:19, edited 1 time in total.

Michael Kenny
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Re: Bad day for the Panthers.

Post by Michael Kenny » 17 Oct 2019 20:10

Miles Krogfus wrote:
17 Oct 2019 19:24

Remember that when the division detrained in late June 1944 at Paris, after road travel to the combat zone many Panzers needed technical touching up and other repairs (short term especially).
That is what is claimed in secondary sources. However there is no archive link to confirm it. What Tom is after is a way of seeing where these June 30 numbers are in the records. The June 28 total of 73 Panthers is referenced.
Even when you get a fuller set of numbers on July 8th there are still 20 Panzers missing from the tally.
How on earth do you lose 46 Panthers in 2 days?

Tom from Cornwall
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Re: Bad day for the Panthers.

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 17 Oct 2019 20:23

Miles,

Thanks, but as I have said, we have seen what Fürbringer says the figures were for 30 Jun 44, but I, for one, can't understand where he got them from.

In Zetterling's book "Normandy 1944", the 9th SS Pz Div panzer strength numbers are almost entirely based on primary sources except for this date for which he uses Fürbringer as his source. In his table on page 340 he also includes a figure of "Total of 40 Panthers" for 10 June and then has nothing until the 30 June figures thereby inadvertently concealing the fact that on p.336 he confirms that during June 1944 the I Pz Bn was brought up to "its authorised strength of 79 tanks".
Miles Krogfus wrote:
17 Oct 2019 19:24
Remember that when the division detrained in late June 1944 at Paris, after road travel to the combat zone many Panzers needed technical touching up and other repairs (short term especially).
Do we have a primary source that records those "breakdowns" and whether they were ever actually fixed (thereby justifying the classification "short-term repair")? The Panther bn was not with the rest of the Division but still located in Mailly-le-Camp as far as I can work out. Do we have a primary source that tells us when the Panther bn left that location and how it moved to Normandy? I've seen evidence of the main divisional columns' movements being organised by stages over several nights but this doesn't mention the Panther bn itself.

I note that Zetterling records that by 1 July "Equipment losses included: 6 Panthers, etc" but doesn't reflect the fact that between leaving Mailly-le-Camp and 2 July the number of "runners" had been reduced from the authorised 79 to just 19. I think a much more sound statement based on the actual historical evidence would be that the division declared "total losses" of Panthers to be 6 by that date and that by 2 July another 54 were non-operational due to either mechanical failure or battle damage, but that at present we do not have enough evidence to establish what the balance was between those causes.

Regards

Tom

critical mass
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Re: Bad day for the Panthers.

Post by critical mass » 18 Oct 2019 21:44

Isn’t this sort of Meldung included in either BAMA RH10/147 ,..10/162 or ...10/318?

Tom from Cornwall
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Re: Bad day for the Panthers.

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 19 Oct 2019 16:20

critical mass wrote:
18 Oct 2019 21:44
Isn’t this sort of Meldung included in either BAMA RH10/147 ,..10/162 or ...10/318?
Thanks,

I can see that Zetterling has used at least the last of those files (BAMA RH 10/318) for the status report of 9 SS Pz Div on 1 June 44 (p.54) and the same source several times in the Divisional section for 9 SS Pz Div. It looks like all those references are also included in the respective NARA file T354 R147.

Can you let me know what the contents of the other two are?

Regards

Tom

Miles Krogfus
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Re: Bad day for the Panthers.

Post by Miles Krogfus » 21 Oct 2019 01:27

On page 185 of Panzer Truppen (2) 1996 edited by Thomas L. Jentz is the non-footnoted data attached below.
Thus one of two quoted German documents lists totally lost 9 SS figures for all the division's combats June 6th to July 8th as 18 Pz.IV, 12 Panthers and 9 Sturmgeschutz while an earlier dated 9 SS Daybook document lists 16 Pz.IV, 6 Panthers and 10 Sturmgeschutz as Verluste for June 29th to late July 2nd 1944.
Note that the well written history of the 24th Lancers by Leonard Willis gives "the bag on the brigade front" on July 1st as 34 Panthers and 3 SP's (see my post # 8 above).
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critical mass
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Re: Bad day for the Panthers.

Post by critical mass » 21 Oct 2019 10:04

Tom,
I don’t own the other two documents in question but after viewing several quotes on them they contain Zustandsberichte of various Heer and SS formations in the 1943-1944 period. They are residing in Freiburg BAMA.
Unit history really is not my topic of interest, though...

Miles Krogfus
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Re: Bad day for the Panthers.

Post by Miles Krogfus » 21 Oct 2019 23:09

July 1,1944 combats from page 219 of "None Had Lances" by Leonard Willis. See my post # 8 above for more information from this book.
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Mobius
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Re: Bad day for the Panthers.

Post by Mobius » 22 Oct 2019 15:41

Concerning Tigers at Fontenay and Rauray. As the British tanks left Fontenay one British Sherman (Sergeant Dring [of A Squadron]) claimed to have knocked out a Tiger at 60 yards penetrating the visor where the Tiger crew bailed out. John Semken was Squadron A Leader at the same time also fired at a Tiger at close range where one shot hit the driver's the visor showering the crew with white hot metal where they bailed. But another claim is that the first Tiger was lost to hits by a 6-pounder (units of the 55th Anti-Tank Regiment of Royal Artillery). So how many Tiger kills were claimed in this instance?

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Re: Bad day for the Panthers.

Post by Michael Kenny » 22 Oct 2019 16:32

Mobius wrote:
22 Oct 2019 15:41
Concerning Tigers at Fontenay and Rauray. As the British tanks left Fontenay one British Sherman (Sergeant Dring [of A Squadron]) claimed to have knocked out a Tiger at 60 yards penetrating the visor where the Tiger crew bailed out. John Semken was Squadron A Leader at the same time also fired at a Tiger at close range where one shot hit the driver's the visor showering the crew with white hot metal where they bailed. But another claim is that the first Tiger was lost to hits by a 6-pounder (units of the 55th Anti-Tank Regiment of Royal Artillery). So how many Tiger kills were claimed in this instance?
There is a single Tiger that was on that road from Fontenay to Rauray. The original report incorrectly makes the Tiger with the hit on the drivers visor into two separate incidents-double-counting if you prefer.
http://ww2talk.com/index.php?threads/75 ... 366/page-2

There is a second Tiger in Rauray and a third somewhere in the area precise location unknown.

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Mobius
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Re: Bad day for the Panthers.

Post by Mobius » 22 Oct 2019 17:45

Michael Kenny wrote:
22 Oct 2019 16:32
There is a second Tiger in Rauray and a third somewhere in the area precise location unknown.
Right, that report tells that 4 Tigers were knocked out but there were only 3 in and around Rauray.
Warmbrunn, Möbius and Amselgruber.

Michael Kenny
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Re: Bad day for the Panthers.

Post by Michael Kenny » 22 Oct 2019 18:42

Mobius wrote:
22 Oct 2019 17:45

Right, that report tells that 4 Tigers were knocked out but there were only 3 in and around Rauray.
Warmbrunn, Möbius and Amselgruber.
The report says 4 but that is because 1 is counted twice. It is not even certain only 3 were lost. There is a survey done in July that places 2 Tiger wrecks in a field just north of the railway line above the Odon and a War Diary mentions engaging and knocking out Tigers in that area. It might be that the Tigers mentioned are the 2 'Rauray' wrecks (which were runners) being assembled for collection. The facts are not yet established.

Michael Kenny
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Re: Bad day for the Panthers.

Post by Michael Kenny » 25 Oct 2019 18:30

Mobius wrote:
22 Oct 2019 17:45
Michael Kenny wrote:
22 Oct 2019 16:32
There is a second Tiger in Rauray and a third somewhere in the area precise location unknown.
Right, that report tells that 4 Tigers were knocked out but there were only 3 in and around Rauray.
Warmbrunn, Möbius and Amselgruber.
I have to withdraw my previous claim that the description of the Tiger knock-outs was a conflation and that there is indeed concrete proof 4 Tigers were knocked out that day. All my previous posts (going back several years) on this matter are incorrect and should be discarded.

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Mobius
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Re: Bad day for the Panthers.

Post by Mobius » 25 Oct 2019 23:53

Michael Kenny wrote:
25 Oct 2019 18:30
Mobius wrote:
22 Oct 2019 17:45
Michael Kenny wrote:
22 Oct 2019 16:32
There is a second Tiger in Rauray and a third somewhere in the area precise location unknown.
Right, that report tells that 4 Tigers were knocked out but there were only 3 in and around Rauray.
Warmbrunn, Möbius and Amselgruber.
I have to withdraw my previous claim that the description of the Tiger knock-outs was a conflation and that there is indeed concrete proof 4 Tigers were knocked out that day. All my previous posts (going back several years) on this matter are incorrect and should be discarded.
What were their numbers?

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Re: Bad day for the Panthers.

Post by Yoozername » 28 Oct 2019 03:29

Crock#1, Wreck#2, Derelict#3, Kenny#4

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