Tiger tank Ammunition expenditure.

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Georg_S
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Re: Tiger tank Ammunition expenditure.

#31

Post by Georg_S » 13 Jan 2020, 15:21

Several posts by user Aida1 was removed, stay polite and claim source if you opposite someones claim. Please read the rules.

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Georg_S
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Re: Tiger tank Ammunition expenditure.

#32

Post by Georg_S » 13 Jan 2020, 15:21

Several posts by user Aida1 was removed, stay polite and claim source if you opposite someones claim. Please read the rules.

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Yoozername
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Re: Tiger tank Ammunition expenditure.

#33

Post by Yoozername » 13 Jan 2020, 15:43

Typical MK not addressing the direct issue. Trying to deflect.
An argument from false premises is a line of reasoning which can lead to wrong results. A false premise is an untrue proposition that forms part of the basis of a logical syllogism. Since the premise (assumption) is not correct, the conclusion drawn may also be wrong.

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Aida1
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Re: Tiger tank Ammunition expenditure.

#34

Post by Aida1 » 13 Jan 2020, 19:02

Michael Kenny wrote:
13 Jan 2020, 00:11
Aida1 wrote:
12 Jan 2020, 20:55

He certainly is very ridiculous when he tries to imply that a Tiger tank had to fire dozens of rounds before it hit a tank.
The frenzied attempts to try and discredit the June numbers for sPz Abt 502 seems to have caused some to overlook the numbers for July.
This:
sPz Abt 502 4-27 July 1944 (2) ,,ff.jpg


Where in the above example (full version in the OP) does it say/hint/imply that 'a Tiger tank had to fire dozens of rounds before it hit a tank'?
It is the impression you are trying to give but which is completely wrong as has been explained before.

critical mass
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Re: Tiger tank Ammunition expenditure.

#35

Post by critical mass » 17 Jan 2020, 12:50

I suggest following this discussion:

http://www.dupuyinstitute.org/ubb/Forum ... 00021.html

Yoozername
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Re: Tiger tank Ammunition expenditure.

#36

Post by Yoozername » 17 Jan 2020, 16:20

Discussions like that, especially on the 'macro-scale', have as much static as tunes. There are so many parameters that need to be taken in. Saying factories made XX million rounds, and this many tanks were destroyed is silly. Most ammunition is never fired in most cases.

In this case, there is data, but an unwillingness by the OP to move off his myopic agenda. To assume that 'AP' is only fired at 'tanks' is sort of naive (at best). The actual reasons for the consumption of AP has already been discussed. The major factor is that the Tigers were used in an assault gun role in that battle, and fighting an enemy in bunkers, trenches in a heavily fortified positions. The limited tank battle mentioned is at long ranges from accounts. It seems that antitank guns were the greatest threat, and yes, tanks will fire AP at antitank guns so as to get the first hit. The hilly terrain would allow both sides to withdraw if fire was too great. It is not a nice ping-pong table miniatures battle.

Richard Anderson
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Re: Tiger tank Ammunition expenditure.

#37

Post by Richard Anderson » 17 Jan 2020, 17:29

critical mass wrote:
17 Jan 2020, 12:50
I suggest following this discussion:

http://www.dupuyinstitute.org/ubb/Forum ... 00021.html
I am thinking of including a discussion of AP and HE use in the ETOUSA in For Purpose of Service Test, but the problem is the 76mm consumption...it was used both by the 76mm-armed M4-series as well as the M18 GMC. The other problem is the counts of ETOUSA tanks does not always clearly discriminate between 75mm and 76mm-armed Medium Tanks M4-series, but I may be able to work around that.

The nice thing is that the consumption figures are clearly identified as "fired", so the issue of "other losses" is mitigated. :D
Richard C. Anderson Jr.

American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall
Hitler's Last Gamble
Artillery Hell

Yoozername
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Re: Tiger tank Ammunition expenditure.

#38

Post by Yoozername » 17 Jan 2020, 20:29

US Tankers would fire main rounds just to dial in ranges. That is, no target whatsoever, just a quick means to know what setting would hit a target area. Something that I am sure would be verbatim in the German Army. Also, Shermans and TD would be used in indirect fire roles also. So, yeah, good luck compiling that.

US Tank doctrine called out firing both AP and HE when engaging armor targets BTW. Troops threw WP in the mix also.

Michael Kenny
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Re: Tiger tank Ammunition expenditure.

#39

Post by Michael Kenny » 17 Jan 2020, 20:52

There is a limited amount of information for the Pz IV Rgt of 12th SS in Normandy.

June 7th
two sets of numbers so take it 'as is'.
300 or 944 HE, 235 or 721 AP
29 M4 claimed. Meeting engagement where two advancing tank regiments collided.

18 June 100 HE, 50 AP. Suspicious that the figures are so rounded but it is from a list of every type of ammo expended down to 36 pistol rounds. . 4 M4 claimed.
26 June 680 HE, 320 AP. EPSOM, very intensive activity. 50 tank kills claimed.
27 June 480 HE, 260 AP. 15 kills claimed.
8 July 160 HE, 190 AP. 41 kills claimed.

Yoozername
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Re: Tiger tank Ammunition expenditure.

#40

Post by Yoozername » 17 Jan 2020, 20:58

This video show the effects of various weapons against pillboxes. The 105 mm Howitzer is deemed ineffective with its HE and HEAT. Clearly, weapons firing AP type ammunition is very effective.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ul_ucU3l1Dc

Richard Anderson
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Re: Tiger tank Ammunition expenditure.

#41

Post by Richard Anderson » 17 Jan 2020, 21:08

I so love how the lack of knowledge for the lack of knowledge's sake has become so enshrined here.
Richard C. Anderson Jr.

American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall
Hitler's Last Gamble
Artillery Hell

Yoozername
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Re: Tiger tank Ammunition expenditure.

#42

Post by Yoozername » 17 Jan 2020, 21:19

Richard Anderson wrote:
17 Jan 2020, 21:08
I so love how the lack of knowledge for the lack of knowledge's sake has become so enshrined here.
Could be a case of Mootiness? No emoticon?

Michael Kenny
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Re: Tiger tank Ammunition expenditure.

#43

Post by Michael Kenny » 17 Jan 2020, 21:27

Richard Anderson wrote:
17 Jan 2020, 21:08
I so love how the lack of knowledge for the lack of knowledge's sake has become so enshrined here.
That is why I just posted the numbers. All problems are created in the eye of the beholder.

I made a few attempts to warn the more 'emotional' respondents of their error but to no avail:

Examples:

I simply give you the numbers compiled by the unit. Any 'impression' you gained is your reading of the numbers.

The numbers have nothing to do with 'accuracy'.
To date none of the references I posted have been challenged by anything other than 'I don't believe it'.

Yoozername
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Re: Tiger tank Ammunition expenditure.

#44

Post by Yoozername » 17 Jan 2020, 23:09

Yeah, you posted the numbers. And you got handled. LOL!~ You are challenged because...you can't understand it. Or prove what you think you are saying!

Well, not as funny as the 'Wittman Obsession' thread you started, but perhaps graphs, or just cutting n pasting numbers, aren't your strong suits? Stick to fuzzy photos?

Any battle stats need to be taken in the context of the battle conditions and forces. Your dropping numbers from books is very 90s. Clearly you want to ignore anything that exposes your ineptitude. You sort of remind me of Adam Schiff.

Michael Kenny
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Re: Tiger tank Ammunition expenditure.

#45

Post by Michael Kenny » 18 Jan 2020, 00:10

Yoozername wrote:
17 Jan 2020, 23:09
Your dropping numbers from books is very 90s.
If the books are merely printing numbers from contemporary sources then posting style has no bearing on their validity.
I understand your rage not being able to refute them.

Yoozername wrote:
17 Jan 2020, 23:09
Clearly you want to ignore anything that exposes your ineptitude.
If that were the case then wouldn't you be on ignore?

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