Tiger tank Ammunition expenditure.

Discussions on the vehicles used by the Axis forces. Hosted by Christian Ankerstjerne
Yoozername
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Re: Tiger tank Ammunition expenditure.

Post by Yoozername » 18 Jan 2020 15:27

Perhaps we can go from MK's 'snippets' to the actual text?

I will break it into readable sections lest MK 'pull a schiff' and accuse me of high crimes....
jun24_1.jpg
(To be continued)
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Yoozername
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Re: Tiger tank Ammunition expenditure.

Post by Yoozername » 18 Jan 2020 15:31

June 24 text
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Re: Tiger tank Ammunition expenditure.

Post by Yoozername » 18 Jan 2020 15:38

Note the 'elements' basically retreated.

As I have said all along, the Tigers were being used in an unconventional way. Basically, as described in the text, as assault guns. The terrain and fortifications are important factors in this battle, and stilted comparisons to other battles, without analyzing these factors, shows a lack of understanding of fundamental principles of battle.

Clearly the enemy armor had pulled out, and the Tigers and assault guns were fighting infantry in bunkers, trenches and the 'Fortress like' area held by a large infantry force. Antitank guns and bunkers are targets of AP rounds.
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Re: Tiger tank Ammunition expenditure.

Post by Yoozername » 18 Jan 2020 15:50

Text describes enemy counter-attacks and 7 tanks destroyed. Does anyone believe that hundreds of Panzergrenadier 39 were fired at tanks that day? It says 'evening', perhaps some night assaults?

As a side note, I believe that the Germans should have had HEAT rounds for the Tigers at this date....or is that just being an anorak?
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Re: Tiger tank Ammunition expenditure.

Post by Richard Anderson » 18 Jan 2020 16:48

Michael Kenny wrote:
18 Jan 2020 00:54
Ah so you did check and found your Tiger example was not so low after all.
Well, the 2,202 Medium Tanks M4 in the ETOUSA, including the 893 of First Army deployed to 16 June 1944, expended a grand total of 46,980 HE, 27,247 AP and APC, 1,904 WP Smoke, and 1,603 HC Smoke rounds in combat and training 6-20 June 1944. So I suspect the expenditure in combat was somewhere less than 3.5 rounds HE per tank per day, 2.0 rounds of AP/APC per tank per day, and 0.26 rounds of Smoke per tank per day, so something under 6 rounds per tank per day expended for all reasons, including fired in anger, fired in "ranging", fired in training, and lost (likely at least 10% of the total).
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

Michael Kenny
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Re: Tiger tank Ammunition expenditure.

Post by Michael Kenny » 18 Jan 2020 16:54

Yoozername wrote:
18 Jan 2020 15:12


You are accusing me of what?

You misquoted and I corrected.

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Re: Tiger tank Ammunition expenditure.

Post by Michael Kenny » 18 Jan 2020 17:00

Richard Anderson wrote:
18 Jan 2020 16:48


Well, the 2,202 Medium Tanks M4 in the ETOUSA, including the 893 of First Army deployed to 16 June 1944, expended a grand total of 46,980 HE, 27,247 AP and APC, 1,904 WP Smoke, and 1,603 HC Smoke rounds in combat and training 6-20 June 1944. So I suspect the expenditure in combat was somewhere less than 3.5 rounds HE per tank per day, 2.0 rounds of AP/APC per tank per day, and 0.26 rounds of Smoke per tank per day, so something under 6 rounds per tank per day expended for all reasons, including fired in anger, fired in "ranging", fired in training, and lost (likely at least 10% of the total).
That is higher than the numbers for 21 AG in The Administrative History. No detailed breakdown or other detail is given.

I was replying to a poster who seemed to think a 10 rounds per day average was low.

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Re: Tiger tank Ammunition expenditure.

Post by Yoozername » 18 Jan 2020 17:02

Well, the 2,202 Medium Tanks M4 in the ETOUSA, including the 893 of First Army deployed to 16 June 1944, expended a grand total of 46,980 HE, 27,247 AP and APC, 1,904 WP Smoke, and 1,603 HC Smoke rounds in combat and training 6-20 June 1944. So I suspect the expenditure in combat was somewhere less than 3.5 rounds HE per tank per day, 2.0 rounds of AP/APC per tank per day, and 0.26 rounds of Smoke per tank per day, so something under 6 rounds per tank per day expended for all reasons, including fired in anger, fired in "ranging", fired in training, and lost (likely at least 10% of the total).
That is an interesting stat. Given that almost all M4 were 75mm at that time. Also, given that the number of Panzer Divisions, or even armor faced was low, that means (according to the MK rule), that hundreds of rounds of M72 and M61 were fired at each AFV.

I believe total 75 mm tank ammo production was 13 million? Or was it 26 million? I forget. I do know that post war, after it was obsoleted, they demilitarized it by modifying the production machines to run backwards (or upside down...doesn't matter). Hundreds of tons of material.

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Re: Tiger tank Ammunition expenditure.

Post by Yoozername » 18 Jan 2020 17:04

Michael Kenny wrote:
18 Jan 2020 17:00
I was replying to a poster who seemed to think a 10 rounds per day average was low.
That was not my point. Doesn't matter. Keeping posting moot or antagonizing bleets.

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Re: Tiger tank Ammunition expenditure.

Post by Michael Kenny » 18 Jan 2020 17:08

Yoozername wrote:
18 Jan 2020 15:27
Perhaps we can go from MK's 'snippets' to the actual text?
I only scan the bits I need. If you want anything else then you will have do it yourself. I told you where to look and Google books is not that difficult to master.

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Re: Tiger tank Ammunition expenditure.

Post by Yoozername » 18 Jan 2020 17:11

Michael Kenny wrote:
18 Jan 2020 17:08
Yoozername wrote:
18 Jan 2020 15:27
Perhaps we can go from MK's 'snippets' to the actual text?
I only scan the bits I need. If you want anything else then you will have do it yourself. I told you where to look and Google books is not that difficult to master.
I want others to see the whole story. This is a history site. Again, I owned the book for years and read it quite a few times. I don't need you to tell me anything.

You need to push a silly narrative. Where is that quote again?

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Re: Tiger tank Ammunition expenditure.

Post by Michael Kenny » 18 Jan 2020 17:12

Yoozername wrote:
18 Jan 2020 17:02
that hundreds of rounds of M72 and M61 were fired at each AFV.
or:

that hundreds of rounds of M72 and M61 were fired for each AFV kill claim.

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Re: Tiger tank Ammunition expenditure.

Post by Michael Kenny » 18 Jan 2020 17:18

Yoozername wrote:
18 Jan 2020 17:11
I owned the book for years and read it quite a few times. I don't need you to tell me anything.
You can't have read it that well. You failed to notice Carius claimed 28 phantom tank kills on July 22nd.

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Re: Tiger tank Ammunition expenditure.

Post by Yoozername » 18 Jan 2020 17:20

Michael Kenny wrote:
18 Jan 2020 17:12
Yoozername wrote:
18 Jan 2020 17:02
that hundreds of rounds of M72 and M61 were fired at each AFV.
or:

that hundreds of rounds of M72 and M61 were fired for each AFV kill claim.

LOL! Ok you have any proof? Source? Any fresh MacGuffins?

It couldn't be that they fired AP against the fortress-like buildings in parts of Normandy? Bunkers? Or even the fortress-like Hedgerows? Nah, couldn't be that.

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Re: Tiger tank Ammunition expenditure.

Post by Yoozername » 18 Jan 2020 17:31

Michael Kenny wrote:
18 Jan 2020 17:18
Yoozername wrote:
18 Jan 2020 17:11
I owned the book for years and read it quite a few times. I don't need you to tell me anything.
You can't have read it that well. You failed to notice Carius claimed 28 phantom tank kills on July 22nd.
Stay on topic if you can....I think you want to post at this thread...seems they are patiently awaiting your response...

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=163515&hilit=carius&start=15

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