Tiger tank Ammunition expenditure.
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Re: Tiger tank Ammunition expenditure.
Perhaps we can go from MK's 'snippets' to the actual text?
I will break it into readable sections lest MK 'pull a schiff' and accuse me of high crimes....
(To be continued)
I will break it into readable sections lest MK 'pull a schiff' and accuse me of high crimes....
(To be continued)
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Re: Tiger tank Ammunition expenditure.
June 24 text
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Last edited by Yoozername on 18 Jan 2020, 16:54, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Tiger tank Ammunition expenditure.
Note the 'elements' basically retreated.
As I have said all along, the Tigers were being used in an unconventional way. Basically, as described in the text, as assault guns. The terrain and fortifications are important factors in this battle, and stilted comparisons to other battles, without analyzing these factors, shows a lack of understanding of fundamental principles of battle.
Clearly the enemy armor had pulled out, and the Tigers and assault guns were fighting infantry in bunkers, trenches and the 'Fortress like' area held by a large infantry force. Antitank guns and bunkers are targets of AP rounds.
As I have said all along, the Tigers were being used in an unconventional way. Basically, as described in the text, as assault guns. The terrain and fortifications are important factors in this battle, and stilted comparisons to other battles, without analyzing these factors, shows a lack of understanding of fundamental principles of battle.
Clearly the enemy armor had pulled out, and the Tigers and assault guns were fighting infantry in bunkers, trenches and the 'Fortress like' area held by a large infantry force. Antitank guns and bunkers are targets of AP rounds.
Last edited by Yoozername on 18 Jan 2020, 16:58, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tiger tank Ammunition expenditure.
Text describes enemy counter-attacks and 7 tanks destroyed. Does anyone believe that hundreds of Panzergrenadier 39 were fired at tanks that day? It says 'evening', perhaps some night assaults?
As a side note, I believe that the Germans should have had HEAT rounds for the Tigers at this date....or is that just being an anorak?
As a side note, I believe that the Germans should have had HEAT rounds for the Tigers at this date....or is that just being an anorak?
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Re: Tiger tank Ammunition expenditure.
Well, the 2,202 Medium Tanks M4 in the ETOUSA, including the 893 of First Army deployed to 16 June 1944, expended a grand total of 46,980 HE, 27,247 AP and APC, 1,904 WP Smoke, and 1,603 HC Smoke rounds in combat and training 6-20 June 1944. So I suspect the expenditure in combat was somewhere less than 3.5 rounds HE per tank per day, 2.0 rounds of AP/APC per tank per day, and 0.26 rounds of Smoke per tank per day, so something under 6 rounds per tank per day expended for all reasons, including fired in anger, fired in "ranging", fired in training, and lost (likely at least 10% of the total).Michael Kenny wrote: ↑18 Jan 2020, 01:54Ah so you did check and found your Tiger example was not so low after all.
Richard C. Anderson Jr.
American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall
Hitler's Last Gamble
Artillery Hell
American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall
Hitler's Last Gamble
Artillery Hell
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Re: Tiger tank Ammunition expenditure.
You misquoted and I corrected.
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Re: Tiger tank Ammunition expenditure.
That is higher than the numbers for 21 AG in The Administrative History. No detailed breakdown or other detail is given.Richard Anderson wrote: ↑18 Jan 2020, 17:48
Well, the 2,202 Medium Tanks M4 in the ETOUSA, including the 893 of First Army deployed to 16 June 1944, expended a grand total of 46,980 HE, 27,247 AP and APC, 1,904 WP Smoke, and 1,603 HC Smoke rounds in combat and training 6-20 June 1944. So I suspect the expenditure in combat was somewhere less than 3.5 rounds HE per tank per day, 2.0 rounds of AP/APC per tank per day, and 0.26 rounds of Smoke per tank per day, so something under 6 rounds per tank per day expended for all reasons, including fired in anger, fired in "ranging", fired in training, and lost (likely at least 10% of the total).
I was replying to a poster who seemed to think a 10 rounds per day average was low.
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Re: Tiger tank Ammunition expenditure.
That is an interesting stat. Given that almost all M4 were 75mm at that time. Also, given that the number of Panzer Divisions, or even armor faced was low, that means (according to the MK rule), that hundreds of rounds of M72 and M61 were fired at each AFV.Well, the 2,202 Medium Tanks M4 in the ETOUSA, including the 893 of First Army deployed to 16 June 1944, expended a grand total of 46,980 HE, 27,247 AP and APC, 1,904 WP Smoke, and 1,603 HC Smoke rounds in combat and training 6-20 June 1944. So I suspect the expenditure in combat was somewhere less than 3.5 rounds HE per tank per day, 2.0 rounds of AP/APC per tank per day, and 0.26 rounds of Smoke per tank per day, so something under 6 rounds per tank per day expended for all reasons, including fired in anger, fired in "ranging", fired in training, and lost (likely at least 10% of the total).
I believe total 75 mm tank ammo production was 13 million? Or was it 26 million? I forget. I do know that post war, after it was obsoleted, they demilitarized it by modifying the production machines to run backwards (or upside down...doesn't matter). Hundreds of tons of material.
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Re: Tiger tank Ammunition expenditure.
That was not my point. Doesn't matter. Keeping posting moot or antagonizing bleets.Michael Kenny wrote: ↑18 Jan 2020, 18:00I was replying to a poster who seemed to think a 10 rounds per day average was low.
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Re: Tiger tank Ammunition expenditure.
I only scan the bits I need. If you want anything else then you will have do it yourself. I told you where to look and Google books is not that difficult to master.
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Re: Tiger tank Ammunition expenditure.
I want others to see the whole story. This is a history site. Again, I owned the book for years and read it quite a few times. I don't need you to tell me anything.Michael Kenny wrote: ↑18 Jan 2020, 18:08I only scan the bits I need. If you want anything else then you will have do it yourself. I told you where to look and Google books is not that difficult to master.
You need to push a silly narrative. Where is that quote again?
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Re: Tiger tank Ammunition expenditure.
or:Yoozername wrote: ↑18 Jan 2020, 18:02that hundreds of rounds of M72 and M61 were fired at each AFV.
that hundreds of rounds of M72 and M61 were fired for each AFV kill claim.
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Re: Tiger tank Ammunition expenditure.
You can't have read it that well. You failed to notice Carius claimed 28 phantom tank kills on July 22nd.Yoozername wrote: ↑18 Jan 2020, 18:11I owned the book for years and read it quite a few times. I don't need you to tell me anything.
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Re: Tiger tank Ammunition expenditure.
Michael Kenny wrote: ↑18 Jan 2020, 18:12or:Yoozername wrote: ↑18 Jan 2020, 18:02that hundreds of rounds of M72 and M61 were fired at each AFV.
that hundreds of rounds of M72 and M61 were fired for each AFV kill claim.
LOL! Ok you have any proof? Source? Any fresh MacGuffins?
It couldn't be that they fired AP against the fortress-like buildings in parts of Normandy? Bunkers? Or even the fortress-like Hedgerows? Nah, couldn't be that.
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Re: Tiger tank Ammunition expenditure.
Stay on topic if you can....I think you want to post at this thread...seems they are patiently awaiting your response...Michael Kenny wrote: ↑18 Jan 2020, 18:18You can't have read it that well. You failed to notice Carius claimed 28 phantom tank kills on July 22nd.Yoozername wrote: ↑18 Jan 2020, 18:11I owned the book for years and read it quite a few times. I don't need you to tell me anything.
viewtopic.php?f=55&t=163515&hilit=carius&start=15