Stug III at MOUEN - 29 Jun 44

Discussions on the vehicles used by the Axis forces. Hosted by Christian Ankerstjerne
Alanmccoubrey
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Re: Stug III at MOUEN - 29 Jun 44

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 27 Apr 2020 10:55

Sheldrake wrote:
03 Apr 2020 09:44
Alanmccoubrey wrote:
03 Apr 2020 07:47
Has no one else read Perigault's much better history of 21 PD ? Kortenhaus is more a general history of Normandy than a true history of 21 PD. He even has two of the artillerybatteries as horse drawn ! Page 442 for those who doubt me.
Does this have an answer to my cynical speculation?
It was no secret that Becker was building enough vehicles for six batteries so your cycnical speculation is just that speculation. Feuchtinger was probably more worried about the command finding out about his friend in Paris than how many Hotchkiss SP's he had.
Alan

Tom from Cornwall
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Re: Stug III at MOUEN - 29 Jun 44

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 30 Apr 2020 17:21

Michael,

With thanks to Sam Wren for providing the 11 Armd Div Int Sum in question (of 3 Jul 44) and allowing me to post up here:
11 A Div ISUM 3 Jul 44 - resized.PNG
Those map references do seem to align with the wreck locations in the 2nd Army and 1st Cdn Army Int Sum sketches.

:thumbsup:

Regards

Tom
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Michael Kenny
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Re: Stug III at MOUEN - 29 Jun 44

Post by Michael Kenny » 30 Apr 2020 20:06

Tom from Cornwall wrote:
30 Apr 2020 17:21


Those map references do seem to align with the wreck locations in the 2nd Army and 1st Cdn Army Int Sum sketches.

They don't. These numbers are one square to the right. This (11 AD locations) is the area covered in the 1945 air view


https://remonterletemps.ign.fr/telechar ... ns.4969485

Tom from Cornwall
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Re: Stug III at MOUEN - 29 Jun 44

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 30 Apr 2020 20:26

Hmmm, I lose my map reading proficiency badge!

But surely this just suggests a typo doesn't it? Two Tigers, right date, right railway track, etc...

Regards

Tom

Michael Kenny
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Re: Stug III at MOUEN - 29 Jun 44

Post by Michael Kenny » 30 Apr 2020 20:59

Tom from Cornwall wrote:
30 Apr 2020 20:26
Two Tigers, right date, right railway track, etc...
If the info is correct it means an extra two Tiger losses during EPSOM. Neither '231' or '324' have ever been linked to EPSOM.
It was Sam who provided the original of the Canadian map and the two Pz IV are marked as 'recovered to ????' .

Mouen wrecks B vc.jpg

The last word is not clear on my copy and it would suggest these 2 Pz IV were knocked out right beside the railway line
Mouen Pz IV A70 61-6.jpg

and then moved as they blocked the road



Sale Pz IV 100168 VV.jpg
As one Pz IV is numbered '432' it means it can not be from 12th SS and thus highly likely these 21st Pz Div tanks.
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Sam Wren
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Re: Stug III at MOUEN - 29 Jun 44

Post by Sam Wren » 01 May 2020 00:17

4./Pz. Rgt. 22 was involved there. On 28.6.44 at Mouen 422 was hit and the turret jammed so they withdrew to remove the Shürzen that was blocking the turret. The commander of 421 had his head shot off so it retreated to a sunken lane with final drive damage. 413 had a track shot off but the crew dismounted and short tracked the tank and drove back (to the rear presumably). 425 took two hits and burned out. 434 was also knocked out. The damaged tanks other than 425 & 434 all made it back (Pg 173 of English version of Kortenhaus). There is no mention of 432 but even though Kortenhaus belonged to this Kompanie if I recall correctly, he may have gotten (some of) the turret numbers wrong.
Last edited by Sam Wren on 01 May 2020 08:49, edited 1 time in total.

spannermann
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Re: Stug III at MOUEN - 29 Jun 44

Post by spannermann » 01 May 2020 08:33

Hi,
The attached list of 4/PzRgt 22 was handed to me by Werner Kortenhaus about 30 years ago, so I have no idea how accurate it is today, but it may help the investigation.
His 422 is mentioned, twice.

cheers Paul
pictures_0001.jpg
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Tom from Cornwall
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Re: Stug III at MOUEN - 29 Jun 44

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 01 May 2020 15:49

Spannermann,

Thanks for posting that document. As usual though, one step forward and two steps back. :D

Regards

Tom

Michael Kenny
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Re: Stug III at MOUEN - 29 Jun 44

Post by Michael Kenny » 01 May 2020 21:09

How about a few more complications?

3 RTR June War Diary.
Screenshot_516.jpg
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