Why didn't they use 88mm/L56 gun in panther?

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Nodeo-Franvier
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Why didn't they use 88mm/L56 gun in panther?

Post by Nodeo-Franvier » 19 Mar 2020 09:22

The 88mm gun got better HE shells, was not much bigger , could take out T-34 just as well and most important of all was already available. So why didn't they use it in the Panther.

critical mass
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Re: Why didn't they use 88mm/L56 gun in panther?

Post by critical mass » 19 Mar 2020 15:50

It was not necessary at this point in the war. The 88mm fired a heavier shell but required more weight and a larger turret diameter. that puts many constraints on an limited design. Plus, with the 1942 breakthrough in mass production of high quality Pzgr39 projectiles, which allowed the 75mm shell to negotiate much higher impact velocities intactly, the scale effects worked to the benefit of a smaller caliber, if the higher velocity was utilized. They were just employing a technological lead.
The kwk42 was a more modern gun than the kwk36. Lighter, better velocity, accuracy, penetration, rate of fire. It had less dispersion, a shorter time of flight and a flatter trajectory, too, which supported it as a direct fire weapon to longer ranges than the kwk36.

The kwk36 was Really a one off design, rushed before the pzgr39 was matured because they believed in 1941, they need the 88mm caliber to provide long range superiority.

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Re: Why didn't they use 88mm/L56 gun in panther?

Post by Contender » 19 Mar 2020 20:36

Nodeo-Franvier wrote:
19 Mar 2020 09:22
could take out T-34
Discounting reverse slope or the thin armor sections on the 76 mm T-34's this is still a low bar, most anti-tank weapons from 1942-1945 could "take out a T-34" the KwK 40, Stuk 40 and Pak 40 could penetrate the glacis at long distance.
critical mass wrote:
19 Mar 2020 15:50
The kwk36 was Really a one off design, rushed before the pzgr39 was matured because they believed in 1941, they need the 88mm caliber to provide long range superiority.
Do you know anything about the L/56's "Pzgr 39-1" round? It is supposed to be a later improvement of the Pzgr 39 with slightly better penetration ability & I believe AL in the bursting charge I have no data other than some general scraps.

critical mass
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Re: Why didn't they use 88mm/L56 gun in panther?

Post by critical mass » 19 Mar 2020 22:03

I don’t have primary data on the pzgr39-1. I doubt it offered better penetration under normal conditions. at best, it may have stayed intact against harder armor plate and higher impact velocity or larger proof obliquity (changing from 60 to 45 deg late in 1944).. Maybe It would make a fair bit of a difference in the kwk43 but certainly not kwk36, unless the label refers to the 45 deg proofed one.

Yoozername
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Re: Why didn't they use 88mm/L56 gun in panther?

Post by Yoozername » 19 Mar 2020 23:45

Perhaps some info here regarding the 88mm projectile

viewtopic.php?f=47&t=215918&sid=617d845 ... ae594f8d7d

Also, a testy thread on your subject...

viewtopic.php?f=47&t=237753&start=30
1. The 8,8 cm KWK had a greater recoil throw than the 7,5 cm KWK 42.
2. The 8,8 cm KWK had greater Kinetic Energy with BOTH it's armor piercing AND high explosive rounds than a 7,5 cm KWK 42
3. Actual usage of the ratio of armor piercing (to include ALL types) follows a disproportionate amount of AP:HE in the AP favor
4. The Germans clearly learned their lessons in 1943 BEFORE producing JagdPanzer and went with the proven 7,5 cm 'L48' and 'L70' weapons along with the 8,8 cm L71 weapons. They even stopped producing the Tiger I about midway through 1944.
5. The 8,8 cm KWK 36 would not fit in a Panzer IV and it would beg reasoning why it would be put in a Panther. A StuK version was never produced and would equally beg reasoning why it would be created in the first place.
6. Jagdpanzers were based on armor defeating weapons. The 7,5 cm L70 was the natural choice. If a greater HE solution was needed, the 105 mm class with a 30 pound class projectile was the better way to go. Hence the StuH III. Also, see the sherman 105mm. HL or Hollow Charge projectiles from 4 inch diameter bore weapons were lethal enough even in WWII.

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