Panther Tank Vulnerability

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Richard Stone
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Re: Panther Tank Vulnerability

#16

Post by Richard Stone » 02 May 2020, 04:30

The attached report describes an unusual way in which a Panther was destroyed by a .30 calibre machine gun during combat with the 81st Tank Battalion. The report was taken from the After Action Report of the 81st Tank Battalion and the incident occurred in August 1944 near La Chapelle, France.
81st Tank Batt - Auugust 1944 - PantherKO - near La Chapelle, France Page 38.png

Richard Stone
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Re: Panther Tank Vulnerability

#17

Post by Richard Stone » 22 Dec 2021, 04:06

The attached short report from the March 1945 Tank Destroyer Newsletter confirms that the 803rd Tank Destroyer Battalion knocked out two Panthers with hits through their front plate using the M10 Tank Destroyer's 3” gun with HVAP rounds. The hits were confirmed by inspection of the wrecked Panthers.

These Panther armor plates may have had the same problematic manufacturing issues that others have discussed on this site, or been hit in an advantageous manner, but this information is not listed in the reports I’ve located to date.

I believe the incendiary effect produced by the 3” and 76mm gun HVAP tungsten carbide projectiles, mentioned in the translated German report which I posted earlier, is the result of rapid friction heating produced by the projectile first penetrating and then passing through the armor plate. The armor plate would create hard rubbing contact with the projectile body thereby producing the high temperature incendiary effect over the entire projectile surface. My estimate is that the friction heating would create temperatures in the 1100 degree F (593 degree C) range based on the rapid burning the German report describes.

The heating process is the same one that occurs on tungsten carbide cutting tools used for high speed and rapid deep cut machining of hard alloy steel plate.

I've posted a duplicate of this post in this site’s topic '76mm HVAP Shenanigans' on this site to aid researchers locating it in the future.
Armor - HVAP vs Panther - TDNewsLttr1 - March 1945.png


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Re: Panther Tank Vulnerability

#18

Post by Yoozername » 27 Dec 2021, 11:54

Hey, no matter how you hole it, it is just so sexy. Aye?


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Re: Panther Tank Vulnerability

#19

Post by Yoozername » 27 Dec 2021, 12:05

Has Stone gone 'Full-On' Michael Kenny?

Richard Stone
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Re: Panther Tank Vulnerability

#20

Post by Richard Stone » 24 Feb 2022, 18:56

The short attached report discusses the 2nd Armored Division’s use of a US 37mm anti-tank gun to knock out a Panther during the Normandy campaign. The method used apparently was to fire into the Panther’s rear plate after the tank had passed the gun.

The 37mm gun may have been installed on a M5 Light Tank or a M8 armored car but the report does not identify this item clearly.

The report was printed in the US Army 8 August 1944 Combat Notes report series.
Armor - ComBatt Notes 8 August 1944 - 37mm vs Panther.png

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Re: Panther Tank Vulnerability

#21

Post by Richard Anderson » 24 Feb 2022, 19:42

Yeah, that is one of the odder entries in "Combat Notes". There was no "engine screen" on the rear of a Panther, so no need to keep this secret well guarded. The only "engine screens" were on the rear hull deck, behind the turret. The only way I can see that any antitank gun could hit the Panther's "engine screens" would be if the gun was above and firing downwards at the tank.
Richard C. Anderson Jr.

American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
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Michael Kenny
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Re: Panther Tank Vulnerability

#22

Post by Michael Kenny » 24 Feb 2022, 20:08

Perhaps the 'screens' are the side-skirts?

Richard Anderson
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Re: Panther Tank Vulnerability

#23

Post by Richard Anderson » 24 Feb 2022, 20:48

Michael Kenny wrote:
24 Feb 2022, 20:08
Perhaps the 'screens' are the side-skirts?
But they are "side-skirts" not "rear-skirts"...and AFAIK American troops always referred to them as "skirts" rather than "screens".
Richard C. Anderson Jr.

American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall
Hitler's Last Gamble
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Richard Stone
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Re: Panther Tank Vulnerability

#24

Post by Richard Stone » 24 Feb 2022, 21:31

Item 'D' on the attached US Tank Destroyer Information Letter chart shows the sections of the Panther armor that were classified as being penetrated by the 37mm gun using APC ammunition. The chart was issued in December 1944.

The chart and information were prepared by the Tank Destroyer Command using actual combat results, knocked out vehicle inspections and the Summer 1944 field command firing tests.
Armor - TnkDstryInfoLettr-December1944-Panther-2.png

Richard Anderson
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Re: Panther Tank Vulnerability

#25

Post by Richard Anderson » 24 Feb 2022, 22:05

Richard Stone wrote:
24 Feb 2022, 21:31
Item 'D' on the attached US Tank Destroyer Information Letter chart shows the sections of the Panther armor that were classified as being penetrated by the 37mm gun using APC ammunition. The chart was issued in December 1944.
Indeed. I suspect the actual worry of the 2d Armored Division was that the Germans would add additional armor plate to the rear of the Panther rather than adding armor plate to an area that supposedly was not previously armored.
Richard C. Anderson Jr.

American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall
Hitler's Last Gamble
Artillery Hell

Yoozername
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Re: Panther Tank Vulnerability

#26

Post by Yoozername » 25 Feb 2022, 23:02

The back of the turret is not vulnerable to 37 mm but the rear hull is (CE vs CDE)? I can only think that the cast exhaust guards might be the target, or the access points for track tensioning, crank starting.

The vulnerability is somehow on the upper side hull, not the side turret? Seems odd.

I have seen some late war photos showing halftrack towing what appears to be 37 mm, but wonder how many units actually had them. I would suspect M5 tanks and M8 armored cars being the major recipient of this news.

Image

Also, the report says 37mm HE AP. 37 mm M51 was shot, no HE inside.

http://www.inert-ord.net/usa03a/usa5/37mm/index.html

I would actually like to see the test results leading to the diagram.

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Re: Panther Tank Vulnerability

#27

Post by Yoozername » 25 Feb 2022, 23:54

Richard Anderson wrote:
24 Feb 2022, 19:42
Yeah, that is one of the odder entries in "Combat Notes". There was no "engine screen" on the rear of a Panther, so no need to keep this secret well guarded. The only "engine screens" were on the rear hull deck, behind the turret. The only way I can see that any antitank gun could hit the Panther's "engine screens" would be if the gun was above and firing downwards at the tank.
I don't think this is actually directly firing at the engine screens. The Germans had non-baffled engine decks on both the Tiger and Panther. The British mentioned that HE, directly fired at the rear of the turret, would shoot fragmentation downward into the vulnerable screens. Otto Carius (Tiger) mentions that even light mortars could be bothersome and puncture holes in radiators etc. Clearly a design flaw considering air attacks.

The 37 mm HE is actually a base detonating projectile resembling a large cavity AP but not hardened steel. If hits against the back of the turret, using rapid fire, could attain the same effect.

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Re: Panther Tank Vulnerability

#28

Post by Richard Anderson » 26 Feb 2022, 01:39

Yoozername wrote:
25 Feb 2022, 23:02
I have seen some late war photos showing halftrack towing what appears to be 37 mm, but wonder how many units actually had them. I would suspect M5 tanks and M8 armored cars being the major recipient of this news.
The only units with 37mm M3A1 AT Guns in the ETOUSA would have been the 2d and 3d AD.
Also, the report says 37mm HE AP. 37 mm M51 was shot, no HE inside.
Yep, another oddity. the nomenclature was Shot, APC, 37mm M51, but the only other rounds possible were Shell, HE, 37mm M63 and Canister, 37mm, M2. The only other 37mm rounds were for the M1A2 AA and the M9 Aircraft Gun.
I would actually like to see the test results leading to the diagram.
I suspect the "test" was that they fired a lot of shit at a derelict Panther and then counted up what penetrated.
Richard C. Anderson Jr.

American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall
Hitler's Last Gamble
Artillery Hell

Yoozername
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Re: Panther Tank Vulnerability

#29

Post by Yoozername » 05 Mar 2022, 06:32

All in all, I would say the real target would be the vertical armor above the track and below the upper hull. A good orthogonal as far as 500 meters would get results. The diagram shows what appears to be a A model. I believe there is a instance of multiple panthers taken out by a M5 at close side range? maybe Patton actually came and seen for himself?

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