Panther 100 mm Cast Plate Qualities

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Miles Krogfus
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Panther 100 mm Cast Plate Qualities

Post by Miles Krogfus » 03 Apr 2020 03:37

Here is information on German cast armor plate, which I then relate to the Panther 100 mm turret front and mantlet.
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Last edited by Miles Krogfus on 03 Apr 2020 03:43, edited 1 time in total.

Miles Krogfus
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Re: Panther 100 MM Cast Plate Qualities

Post by Miles Krogfus » 03 Apr 2020 03:40

Here are more Panther cast plate pages.
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Contender
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Re: Panther 100 mm Cast Plate Qualities

Post by Contender » 03 Apr 2020 18:38

Image
CIOS on German cast plate.

critical mass
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Re: Panther 100 mm Cast Plate Qualities

Post by critical mass » 04 Apr 2020 16:58

Do You have the complete CIOS report?

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Re: Panther 100 mm Cast Plate Qualities

Post by Yoozername » 06 Apr 2020 22:32

This image shows the casting w/o the zimmerit. It does seem that the turret front casting includes the two 'ears' as one piece.

Image

critical mass
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Re: Panther 100 mm Cast Plate Qualities

Post by critical mass » 07 Apr 2020 18:55

Its new for me that the front assembly was entirely cast, incl. front plate. But as the data go, one has to give up previous assumptions.

Its allowed to be considerably weaker than 100mm RHA if going by proof acceptance tests. That makes the 120mm Schmalturm RHA turretface plate a lot better protectionwise.

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Re: Panther 100 mm Cast Plate Qualities

Post by Yoozername » 07 Apr 2020 19:18

I knew it was a casting since in some restorations, you can see it has a casting number (92). I did not know if the whole piece, including the semi-circular 'ears' were part of the casting. Not a great design IMO. I have seen the number 106 also.

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Image

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Re: Panther 100 mm Cast Plate Qualities

Post by Yoozername » 15 Apr 2020 22:58

Likewise, I have always suspected that some other German AFV may be using a similar casting of armor. Look at this image of a JagdTiger. Note behind the matlet, the bulbous surface of the front upper-superstructure armor. This whole piece appears to be a casting. Hard to tell on a Tiger II since many have zimmerit.
jagdt.jpg
another view. Also, the mantlet is interesting in that appears to be one piece (almost must be), but it clearly shows a different surface appearance? There must be a reason for that shape too. I suspect some sort of post casting mechanical treatment. Possibly a forging process. The grooves need to fixture it in a jig?
jagm.jpg
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bam
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Re: Panther 100 mm Cast Plate Qualities

Post by bam » 16 Apr 2020 00:59

Yoozername wrote:
15 Apr 2020 22:58

another view. Also, the mantlet is interesting in that appears to be one piece (almost must be), but it clearly shows a different surface appearance? There must be a reason for that shape too. I suspect some sort of post casting mechanical treatment. Possibly a forging process. The grooves need to fixture it in a jig?
I belueve I've read that the Jagdtiger topfblende mantlet was cast then the smooth area was turned and machined down, inside and outside. I've no idea why they did the outside, seems unnecessary.

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Re: Panther 100 mm Cast Plate Qualities

Post by Yoozername » 16 Apr 2020 01:13

The Bulge Tiger II is probably the best example. Here is a screenshot. Note the mantlet also has machining. No one does this unless there is a reason. I suspect there is a process where the cast mantlets are cast, machined, and then a final process of forging is applied.

Also, those four welded spots are interesting. The seemingly thin nature of the turret front armor is false. It goes much deeper in....hmmmmm
t2.jpg
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bam
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Re: Panther 100 mm Cast Plate Qualities

Post by bam » 16 Apr 2020 11:25

The 4 welded spots are reinforcing pins connecting the side and front plates. It prevents the main weld from failing under the stresses of receiving non penetrating hits.

The 180mm front plate does indeed reach further back than the above edge shows. See below plan from J & D's "VK 45.02 to Tiger 2"
1587032653336-670599620.jpg
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critical mass
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Re: Panther 100 mm Cast Plate Qualities

Post by critical mass » 16 Apr 2020 12:13

It’s a good way to connect heavy plates. The side plate is buttressed against the thicker front plate, with connecting rods reinforcing the joint. This removes any weakspot at the free plate edge, usually encountered here. For the projectile, the plate is virtually infinitely deep at the joint, unless it manages to tear free both plates, it will be simplistic to try to perforate the plate where it is not reinforced by buttressed secondary plates.

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Re: Panther 100 mm Cast Plate Qualities

Post by Yoozername » 16 Apr 2020 19:03

The rest of the Tiger II uses the conventional interlocking plates. Even the back of the turret. Bam are you speculating? Do you have a source?

I suspect that front turret plate might be a casting also. Behind the mantlet is a rounded area, hard to tell if it welded on.

The turret sides are more than likely bent plate as has been discussed here before. If there are actually 'pins', the side plates would have to be drilled as well as bent. This really makes for an odd shaped turret front. Especially the 'cutouts' to clear the hatches, etc.

If there actual pins, then both the turret front plate and side plates would need to be drilled for the pin, and then it all lines up? It would be nice if the internal turret had pics.
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Yoozername
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Re: Panther 100 mm Cast Plate Qualities

Post by Yoozername » 16 Apr 2020 19:07

Not sure pins would actually line up?
tig2.jpg
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bam
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Re: Panther 100 mm Cast Plate Qualities

Post by bam » 17 Apr 2020 12:37

The pins can align ok, as the 180 mm front plate goes back further than its weld line joining the roof, when seen from above. The roof plate sat on a lip cut into the 180 mm plate, so the back of that 180 plate is somewhere near the roof lifting ring. If you look at your above photo of the front plate’s undercut that clears the drivers hatches, the back of that undercut is behind the line the pins are on, and yet that undercut hasn’t reached the backside of the front plate, or there would be a hole...if you follow me.

Sorry, cant recall the source, but I've read somewhere that they are pins. Can anyone else help us out with a ref? It's in one of the 20 or so tiger 2 books...

I've seen photos of tiger armour plates held on place on jigs BEFORE the welding, so the plates are held with slight gaps between them, to accommodate the weld bead. This could be the moment to drill holes?

The Maus also uses bolts, and as there's just 1 book on that subject, I have found the sources. Kampfpanzer Maus by Fröhlich
20200417_123710.jpg
1587123485732-661659825.jpg
from page 32
1587124011943616855249.jpg
1587124088411-2064576500.jpg
It seems the Germans decided super thick plates benefitted from pinning.
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Last edited by bam on 17 Apr 2020 17:37, edited 1 time in total.

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