Report on initial use of HEAT (Garnet 38) 7,5 cm StuK 37 01/23/1942

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Yoozername
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Re: Report on initial use of HEAT (Garnet 38) 7,5 cm StuK 37 01/23/1942

Post by Yoozername » 24 Jun 2020 23:20

Mobius wrote:
24 Jun 2020 22:49
Yoozername wrote:
24 Jun 2020 20:25
This document from December 1942 shows that both HL/A and HL/B are standardized for the KWK 40 and StuK 40. Interestingly, it list tracers (L'spurhulse) for both?
Why is that surprising? You posted diagrams of the 4 types of HL and only the early HL did not have a tracer.
I think that I just posted the HL and the HL/C? In any case, see pg. 401 in this document.

http://www.lexpev.nl/downloads/op1666ge ... evol.2.pdf

Also.... Merkblatt 481/58 16/10/1944
HLB.jpg
HLC_rtracer.jpg
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Yoozername
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Re: Report on initial use of HEAT (Garnet 38) 7,5 cm StuK 37 01/23/1942

Post by Yoozername » 24 Jun 2020 23:32

The Pak 40 HL/B has no tracer, yet the 7.62 cm Pak 36 does? The rare 8,8 cm HL used in the KWK does have a tracer.

I will check with the shell collectors.

Can someone translate this? Thanks
HLtext.jpg
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Yoozername
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Re: Report on initial use of HEAT (Garnet 38) 7,5 cm StuK 37 01/23/1942

Post by Yoozername » 25 Jun 2020 00:25

I suppose that use of the HL/B and HL/C could have been concurrent. That is, use a HL/C shots to first get on the target, then fire the HL/B. Also, it seems the correct terminology is GR. 38 HL/X.

In any case, this document gives a date of October 1943 mentioning HL/C. It also seems to be the first document that mentions KWK 40 Pzgr 39 having a 2.5 Kg propellant weight. Also, the Pak 40 having a 2.69 Kg propellant weight.
hdv119324.jpg
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Mobius
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Re: Report on initial use of HEAT (Garnet 38) 7,5 cm StuK 37 01/23/1942

Post by Mobius » 25 Jun 2020 00:33

Yoozername wrote:
24 Jun 2020 23:32
The Pak 40 HL/B has no tracer, yet the 7.62 cm Pak 36 does? The rare 8,8 cm HL used in the KWK does have a tracer.
My memory used to be very good. But, not so much anymore. I just checked my archives and found only the HL/C had a tracer.
The weakest bit images are stronger than the strongest memory.

Yoozername
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Re: Report on initial use of HEAT (Garnet 38) 7,5 cm StuK 37 01/23/1942

Post by Yoozername » 25 Jun 2020 00:40

Mobius wrote:
25 Jun 2020 00:33
Yoozername wrote:
24 Jun 2020 23:32
The Pak 40 HL/B has no tracer, yet the 7.62 cm Pak 36 does? The rare 8,8 cm HL used in the KWK does have a tracer.
My memory used to be very good. But, not so much anymore. I just checked my archives and found only the HL/C had a tracer.
The weakest bit images are stronger than the strongest memory.
Me too. Check out this site

http://michaelhiske.de/Wehrmacht/Heer/S ... tSeite.htm

Peasant
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Re: Report on initial use of HEAT (Garnet 38) 7,5 cm StuK 37 01/23/1942

Post by Peasant » 25 Jun 2020 19:15

Yoozername wrote:
24 Jun 2020 23:32
The Pak 40 HL/B has no tracer, yet the 7.62 cm Pak 36 does? The rare 8,8 cm HL used in the KWK does have a tracer.

I will check with the shell collectors.

Can someone translate this? Thanks

HLtext.jpg
I've OCR'ed the text and used https://www.deepl.com/translator to translate in english(much better results than Google translate), this is what I got:
2. 7.5 m are used for fighting from combat vehicles (combat distance up to 1500 m)
cm Pzgr.Patr. 39 Kw.K. 40 and Pak 40, and the 7,5 cm Pzgr. Patr. 40 and 7,5
cm Pzgr. cartridge 40 {W) Kw.K. 40 and Pak 40. The last two cartridges are
ballistically identical. With the 7,5 cm Pzgr.Patr. 40 (W) it is to be considered however that good
Breakdown performance can only be expected at target distances of up to 1000 m.
3. 7.5 cm size 38 HI/B and HI/C are developed as armour piercing projectiles
and therefore intended by all to fight chariots; but for this purpose they shall
should only be used if no armour piercing grenade shells 39 are available.
The probable hit percentages are from the "Ballistic data", page 45,
to see.
For guns where no metre division is provided for St. Gr.
Firing the 7.5 cm size 38 HI/B and HI/C as a guide the following shooting rule:
Use distance division of the 7.5 cm size 34, but use half the target distance
strike !
Example:
Target distance is 600 meters.
In this case the target is to be aimed at with distance division

600 + 600 = 900 m

2

In exceptional cases, 7.5 cm size 38 HI/B and HI/C can also be used against live targets.
will be fired upon, even at longer distances. This is to be used only in urgent
Emergencies happen when there are no explosive grenades.
The projectiles are painted field grey. At the head is on two opposite
The HI/B or HI/C markings are stencilled on in black. At
A light tracer sleeve is screwed into the bullet holes.
In emergencies, the 7.5 cm step size Patr. 34 can also be used for fighting combat vehicles.
Kw.K. 46 and Pak 40 with A.Z. in position 0.V.
4. the fog cloud which forms on impact of the K.Gr.red Nb. has a
Diameters from 15 to 20 m. It remains effective up to 30 seconds and moves with
from the wind.
More details about the dependence of the fog effect on the weather is from H.Dv. 311/1:
"The Fogging Agents and their Handling, Booklet 1, Principles of Fog Use" to
he-see.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

Brady
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Re: Report on initial use of HEAT (Garnet 38) 7,5 cm StuK 37 01/23/1942

Post by Brady » 25 Jun 2020 20:34

A lot of Great info hear

Yoozername
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Re: Report on initial use of HEAT (Garnet 38) 7,5 cm StuK 37 01/23/1942

Post by Yoozername » 26 Jun 2020 14:16

Peasant wrote:
25 Jun 2020 19:15


I've OCR'ed the text and used https://www.deepl.com/translator to translate in english(much better results than Google translate), this is what I got:
2. 7.5 m are used for fighting from combat vehicles (combat distance up to 1500 m)
cm Pzgr.Patr. 39 Kw.K. 40 and Pak 40, and the 7,5 cm Pzgr. Patr. 40 and 7,5
cm Pzgr. cartridge 40 {W) Kw.K. 40 and Pak 40. The last two cartridges are
ballistically identical. With the 7,5 cm Pzgr.Patr. 40 (W) it is to be considered however that good
Breakdown performance can only be expected at target distances of up to 1000 m.
3. 7.5 cm size 38 HI/B and HI/C are developed as armour piercing projectiles
and therefore intended by all to fight chariots; but for this purpose they shall
should only be used if no armour piercing grenade shells 39 are available.
The probable hit percentages are from the "Ballistic data", page 45,
to see.
For guns where no metre division is provided for St. Gr.
Firing the 7.5 cm size 38 HI/B and HI/C as a guide the following shooting rule:
Use distance division of the 7.5 cm size 34, but use half the target distance
strike !
Example:
Target distance is 600 meters.
In this case the target is to be aimed at with distance division

600 + 600 = 900 m

2

In exceptional cases, 7.5 cm size 38 HI/B and HI/C can also be used against live targets.
will be fired upon, even at longer distances. This is to be used only in urgent
Emergencies happen when there are no explosive grenades.
The projectiles are painted field grey. At the head is on two opposite
The HI/B or HI/C markings are stencilled on in black. At
A light tracer sleeve is screwed into the bullet holes.
In emergencies, the 7.5 cm step size Patr. 34 can also be used for fighting combat vehicles.
Kw.K. 46 and Pak 40 with A.Z. in position 0.V.
4. the fog cloud which forms on impact of the K.Gr.red Nb. has a
Diameters from 15 to 20 m. It remains effective up to 30 seconds and moves with
from the wind.
More details about the dependence of the fog effect on the weather is from H.Dv. 311/1:
"The Fogging Agents and their Handling, Booklet 1, Principles of Fog Use" to
he-see.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
Thanks.

So, it would seem by that date, the production of Pzgr 39 had improved to where the HL rounds were 'substitute standard'. And could be used as 'ersatz-HE' also. HE could be used against armor set on superquick? 0.V.? They give a quick work-around for gun sights without HL markings. That is add 50% more range for the Spgr setting.

Peasant
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Re: Report on initial use of HEAT (Garnet 38) 7,5 cm StuK 37 01/23/1942

Post by Peasant » 05 Oct 2020 18:01

Yugoslav tests have some data on the penetration capabilities of german 75mm HEAT shells: http://www.panzer-war.com/Pdf/ComparativeBallistics.zip

The results are inconsistent, but overall It looks like the difference between the rated and the maximum penetration for the spin stabilized HEAT shells is less than it is for non spinning warheads of Panzershrek/Panzerfaust.

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