7.5 cm Gr.38 HL/B HEAT firing tables and ammo use

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Miles Krogfus
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7.5 cm Gr.38 HL/B HEAT firing tables and ammo use

#1

Post by Miles Krogfus » 08 Jun 2020, 00:01

Page 1 is an addition dated February 1945 to H.Dv.119/113 for the Feldkanone 16/L of February 1944. Page 2 an addition dated February 1945 to H.Dv.119/112 for K7M59, FK7M85 and 7.5 cm Pak 40 of December 1944. Page 3 combines portions of four documents: the ammo use for 7.5 cm KwK and 7.5 cm Pak guns. The first two portions show III Panzer Korps use during the Charkow campaign, the third III Korps use during Operation Citadel, the fourth II SS Panzer Korps 7.5 cm use on July 12, 1943.
Note III Korps gave the old HEAT Gr.38 to armor with short 7.5 cm barrels. As well note the consumption of the new HL B compared to Pz.Gr. 40. Also note ... and ...
Attachments
Hl A 3 001.jpg
HL A 2 001.jpg
HL A 1 001.jpg
Last edited by Miles Krogfus on 08 Jun 2020, 19:37, edited 9 times in total.

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Re: 7.5 cm Gr.38 HL/B HEAT firing tables and ammo use

#2

Post by Miles Krogfus » 08 Jun 2020, 00:04

Drawings: Anlage 4 of 7.5 cm HL/B from Merkblatt H.Dv.481/58 and the drawing 13 D 2906.
Attachments
HL B 3 001.jpg
HL B 2 001.jpg
HL B 1 001.jpg
Last edited by Miles Krogfus on 08 Jun 2020, 08:47, edited 2 times in total.


Miles Krogfus
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Re: 7.5 cm Gr.38 HL/B HEAT firing tables and ammo use

#3

Post by Miles Krogfus » 08 Jun 2020, 01:36

Drawings: Anlage 5 from H.Dv.481/58 and 13 D 2918.
Attachments
HL C 2 001.jpg
HL C 3 001.jpg
Last edited by Miles Krogfus on 08 Jun 2020, 08:46, edited 2 times in total.

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Mobius
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Re: 7.5 cm HL/B HEAT firing tables and ammo use

#4

Post by Mobius » 08 Jun 2020, 05:50

Well, that's interesting. They have the same muzzle velocity but some difference in ballistics.

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Re: 7.5 cm HL/B HEAT firing tables and ammo use

#5

Post by Yoozername » 08 Jun 2020, 14:23

Mobius wrote:
08 Jun 2020, 05:50
Well, that's interesting. They have the same muzzle velocity but some difference in ballistics.
Perhaps due to rifling or barrel length differences? Most of the 7,5 cm weapons fired at the same muzzle velocity? Including the KWK/StuK 37?

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Re: 7.5 cm HL/B HEAT firing tables and ammo use

#6

Post by seppw » 08 Jun 2020, 14:30

Mobius wrote:
08 Jun 2020, 05:50
Well, that's interesting. They have the same muzzle velocity but some difference in ballistics.
The lighter projectile is going to lose its velocity faster(drag).

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Re: 7.5 cm Gr.38 HL/B HEAT firing tables and ammo use

#7

Post by Yoozername » 08 Jun 2020, 16:19

Miles Krogfus wrote:
08 Jun 2020, 00:01
Page 1 is an addition dated February 1945 to H.Dv.119/113 for the Feldkanone 16/L of February 1944. Page 2 an addition dated February 1945 to H.Dv.119/112 for K7M59, FK7M85 and 7.5 cm Pak 40 of December 1944. Page 3 combines portions of four documents: the ammo use for 7.5 cm KwK tank and 7.5 cm Pak guns. The first two portions show III Panzer Korps use during the Charkow campaign, the third III Korps use during Operation Citadel, the fourth II SS Panzer Korps 7.5 cm use on July 12, 1943.
Note III Korps gave the old HEAT Gr.38 to armor with short 7.5 cm barrels. As well note the consumption of the new HL B compared to Pz.Gr. 40. Also note ... and ...
The ammunition consumption is great info. I wonder if there may be a typo in the top of the report. Basically, I find it hard to believe that the 7,5 cm short guns would not fire Spgr (HE)? They appear to be firing two types of AP? Gr Patr (435 rounds) and Pzgr (1256). I wonder if the Gr Patr is actual HL 38, and the second listing Spgr (916) is actually really HE? They seem to use different terminology in the combined reports.

In the second report, the short 7,5 cm only fire Spgr and GR 38. No AP or smoke? I suppose that HL/B rounds were not available for these weapons at that time?

The Kursk dates show that they only fire GR 38, Smoke and regular AP? No HE? They fire a lot of GR 38? Sort of a ersatz HE then?

I wonder if the ammunition is also used by other weapons like the halftrack (stummel) or armored cars in the corp?

As far as the KWK 40 (possibly StuK 40?), the use of HL/B is clearly widespread. Pzgr 40 seems a minority 'special' type and other reports posted by Miles show it as such.

It is somewhat surprising how much Spgr is fired by the Pak 40. As far as Pzgr 40, I doubt that it was used much. 10 rounds according to one report, but another report staes over a thousand rounds???

Image

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Re: 7.5 cm Gr.38 HL/B HEAT firing tables and ammo use

#8

Post by Miles Krogfus » 08 Jun 2020, 19:20

In ammo consumption reports that I have read, sometimes little or no use reveals a lack of supply of that ammo. Also, the use of ammo shown in post #1 does not state as to what tanks used compared to SP's and halftracks. The use of a specific round type might not get immediately or fully reported to the Munitions Officer so may not be shown in certain reports. HL B/C ammo use was important for combat units and that is a main point of my post.
Last edited by Miles Krogfus on 09 Jun 2020, 04:49, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: 7.5 cm Gr.38 HL/B HEAT firing tables and ammo use

#9

Post by Miles Krogfus » 09 Jun 2020, 04:35

For comparison, here are Figures from pages 36-38 of H.Dv.119/327, "Schusstafel fur die Panzerjagerkanone 36", published in October 1944 giving velocities and times to range for 7.62 cm Gr 38 HL/B and HL/C with muzzle velocities of 450 m/s:
100 meters 436 m/s at .2 seconds
500 meters 388 m/s at 1.2 seconds
1000 meters 343 m/s at 2.6 seconds
1500 meters 312 m/s at 4.1 seconds
2000 meters 291 m/s at 5.8 seconds
2500 meters 274 m/s at 7.6 seconds

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Re: 7.5 cm Gr.38 HL/B HEAT firing tables and ammo use

#10

Post by Yoozername » 09 Jun 2020, 16:07

Miles Krogfus wrote:
08 Jun 2020, 19:20
In ammo consumption reports that I have read, sometimes little or no use reveals a lack of supply of that ammo. Also, the use of ammo shown in post #1 does not state as to what tanks used compared to SP's and halftracks. The use of a specific round type might not get immediately or fully reported to the Munitions Officer so may not be shown in certain reports. HL B/C ammo use was important for combat units and that is a main point of my post.
The data from the end of 1942, as well as SOPs regarding the use of Pzgr 39, also show that HL/B is clearly a main gun round, and not a 'special' round. The manufacturing limitations of Pzgr 39 rounds, and the increasing number of AFV using it, led to restrictions on what round should be used. The Feb 2-Feb 10th data shows the KWK 40 weapons using the HL/B predominately. 2327 rounds HL/B vs 1995 Pzgr 39. Of the 5971 rounds consumed, almost 3/4 are antitank rounds.

The data from July shows that the Pzgr 39 rounds may taken the lead over HL/B as production ramped up. As far as the Pzgr 40 rounds for the KWK 40 weapons, very little use is shown.

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Re: 7.5 cm Gr.38 HL/B HEAT firing tables and ammo use

#11

Post by Miles Krogfus » 18 Jun 2020, 03:08

Addition to 1944 H.Dv.119/318 "Vorlaufige Kommandotafel fur Infanteriegeschutz 37 und 42." HL/B with a muzzle velocity of 350 m/s.
Attachments
HL B 350 ms 001.jpg

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Re: 7.5 cm Gr.38 HL/B HEAT firing tables and ammo use

#12

Post by Yoozername » 20 Jun 2020, 22:23

A test with a 7,5 cm German HEAT round. This is actually pretty good fragmentation. A near miss on a Soviet tank with tank riders would be effective.

Image

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Re: 7.5 cm Gr.38 HL/B HEAT firing tables and ammo use

#13

Post by Miles Krogfus » 18 Jul 2020, 00:52

The 7.5 cm PAK 40 made effective use of HL/B. Here are pages from Panzer-Beschusstafel A9 published January 20,1943.
Attachments
HL Pak 40 3 001.jpg
PAK 40 HL B 2 001.jpg
PAK 40 HL 1 001.jpg

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Re: 7.5 cm Gr.38 HL/B HEAT firing tables and ammo use

#14

Post by Peasant » 18 Jul 2020, 09:33

For those interested, one can find other editions of Panzer-Beschusstafel for other german guns of the time here: https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... rid/zoom/1
Although this particular edition seems to missing there.

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