Grille Normady 44

Discussions on the vehicles used by the Axis forces. Hosted by Christian Ankerstjerne
Michael Kenny
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Re: Grille Normady 44

#16

Post by Michael Kenny » 03 Jul 2020, 23:14

spannermann wrote:
01 Jul 2020, 00:26
Peiper ordered the burning down of the whole village and the shooting of its inhabitants.

So a War Crime is the inspiration/source for their badge?

spannermann
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Re: Grille Normady 44

#17

Post by spannermann » 04 Jul 2020, 01:20

Hi Michael,
Its however you wish to read it, it could be just as you say, it could be just for the entry and exit of the enemy lines, it could be for both, but your view is rather predictable.
cheers Paul


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Re: Grille Normady 44

#18

Post by Michael Kenny » 04 Jul 2020, 01:49

spannermann wrote:
04 Jul 2020, 01:20
but your view is rather predictable.
It is indeed.
I predict that 95% of people who read :


Peiper ordered the burning down of the whole village and the shooting of its inhabitants.

would recognise that is a War Crime' and condemn it.

I can not speak for the other 5% .............

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Re: Grille Normady 44

#19

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 04 Jul 2020, 11:18

Denniss wrote:
03 Jul 2020, 22:29
The later Grille built on Ausf. M chassis was aktually the Grille Ausf. K (for whatever reason)
Deniss, What reliable source do you have for that ? I have only ever seen it so called on a kit box, in the same way that the Flakpanzer 38(t) gets to be called the Gepard without any reason.
Alan

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yantaylor
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Re: Grille Normady 44

#20

Post by yantaylor » 05 Jul 2020, 16:17

I couldn't find it either, in fact all three types of Marders which used the 38(t) chassis do have double names like so;

Panzerjäger 38(t) fur 7.62cm PaK 36 (r) Sd. Kfz 139 or Marder III, VII und VIII Serie TNHPS

7.5cm PaK 40/3 auf Panzerkampwagen 38(t) Ausf H Sd. Kfz 138 or VIII Serie TNHPS

Panzerjäger 38(t) mit 7.5cm PaK 40/3 Ausf M Sd. Kfz 138 or Marder III X Serie TNHPS, 7.5cm PaK 40 auf Jag 38(t)

It is similar to the US M8 HMC, some call it the Scott but as far as I know, this was not an official title like the Lee, Sherman, Stuart or Chaffee.

Ian

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Re: Grille Normady 44

#21

Post by yantaylor » 05 Jul 2020, 16:21

Was the Steyr 1500 and the s.E.Pkw used in the same roles?

Ian

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Re: Grille Normady 44

#22

Post by spannermann » 05 Jul 2020, 17:38

Hi Ian,
Yes the 1933 Einheits Programm m.E.Pkw and s.E.Pkw were replaced by the 1940 Schell Programm vehicles of the 1500 series, which were manufactured by Steyr but also AU-Audi, AU-Wanderer, Phanomen-Granit, and Mercedes-Benz.

cheers PAUL

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Re: Grille Normady 44

#23

Post by Denniss » 05 Jul 2020, 18:57

Ausf. K is from Panzer Tracts 23, I'm sure it's also in some recent releases about Pz 38t and/or SP guns in the PanzerTracts series.
Long name is stated as Geschützwagen 38M für s.IG.33/2(Sf.) (Sd.Kfz.138/1) Ausf. K
The original Grille does not seem to have received an Ausführung designator and the Flakpanzer 38 was Ausf L
There was no (t) designator for Flakpanzer 38, Panzerjäger 38/Marder III nor for Jagdpanzer 38 (and no Hetzer for the latter anyway). Understandable as the design were considered of german (non-foreign) origin.

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Re: Grille Normady 44

#24

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 05 Jul 2020, 20:48

Thanks Denniss, I have looked in Doyle/Kliment's1979 book "Czechoslovak AFVs 1918-1945" and they agree which means that I've known since 1979 and just hadn't noticed the K! However they do call the original Grille an Ausf H.

As for the (t), Doyle/Kliment have it on all of the vehicles you mention because they were original Czech designs which the Germans merely continued to produce, they even point out that in Autumn of 1944 when the Germans were planing to discontinue the Panzer III/IV chassis (Hummel and Nashorn chassis) Hitler ordered that all SPs were to be on the 38(t) and 38(d) chassis, The (d) being the Tatra diesel engined German redesign of the 38(t). So as late as April 1945 the Germans were still using the designation (t) with all those types.

Confusing isn't it ?
Alan


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yantaylor
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Re: Grille Normady 44

#26

Post by yantaylor » 05 Jul 2020, 21:28

Thanks Paul, so I guess both served in Libya 1941, probaly in numerous rolls.
PSC does a three model kit of the Steyr 1500 in 1/72 scale, they list it as this;
https://www.theplasticsoldiercompany.co ... heavy-car/
As I am compliling models used by DAK, I wonder just where these cars operated and in which units and numbers.

Ian

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Re: Grille Normady 44

#27

Post by spannermann » 06 Jul 2020, 09:28

Hi Ian,
The Steyr 1500 was first produced in July 1941, so probably would not have turned up in Africa for a few months after that. Used by just about any unit in any sort of role, troop carriers, trucks, ambulances, open and closed body radio vehicles, gun towers etc.,.

There was one specialist unit in Africa where you can see maybe six together, cannot remember who they were, but their badge was a scorpian I believe. No doubt somebody else can explain better. Photo attached beklow.

Have a couple of the PSC Steyr 1500 kits, very good, The kit represents a mid 1942 and onwards vehcile with the spare wheel on the outside of the body.

PS, maybe you ought to start a separate thread, as this not about Grille :)

cheers Paul
Attachments
Steyr1500AFRIKA1943.jpg

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Re: Grille Normady 44

#28

Post by SIS 5 » 06 Jul 2020, 11:25

Hi Ian, hi Paul,

this unit had the name "Sonderkommando Dora" (special task force Dora).
Here a list of the vehicles of this unit:
Steyr 1500 A: 15 pieces (since 9th November 1942);
- VW Kübelwagen: at least 6 pieces (from the beginning);
- Horch 901 (Kfz. 15): 2 pieces (from the beginning);
- Horch 901 radio car (Kfz. 17): 2 pieces (from the beginning);
- Opel Blitz: 6 - 7 pieces with flatbed + 1 piece house-type van body (from the beginning) + 1 "Bildwagen" as a photo lab + 1 radio truck (delivery about August 1942);
- Mercedes truck L 4500: 6 pieces (from November 1942);
- Ford V 8 Typ 48: 1 piece (from the beginning)
- armored car Horch (Sdkfz 222): 2 pieces (from the beginning)
- heavy motorcycle with sidecar BMW R 75: 1 piece (from the beginning)

Regards

Bert

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Re: Grille Normady 44

#29

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 06 Jul 2020, 11:57

Very few, if any Steyr 1500 in Libya the first ones seem to appear in Tunisia and with, as Bert says, Dora. I have never seen a photograph of a Steyr in Libya/Egypt.
Alan

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Re: Grille Normady 44

#30

Post by yantaylor » 06 Jul 2020, 12:16

Sorry to you all for going off topic, yes the Grille was my intention, but things just got out of hand.

I will refrain from buying the 1500, as I want to get together vehicles circa 1941. I don't think that any models in 1/72 are available for the s.E.Pkw.

I am a bit miffed that I bought three PSC Mk IV ausf F1s, as these appeared in 1942, I would have much preferred ausf Ds or maybe even Es, but these models are quite rare in 1/72.

Ian

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