Sd.Kfz 17

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yantaylor
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Sd.Kfz 17

Post by yantaylor » 05 Sep 2020 12:49

Hi everyone.

I know that we have been over this ground before but, are the 2cm Sd.Kfz 251s located in German Panzer Grenadier Companies really Sd.Kfz 17s. Looking at a photo of a 17 now and it looks to me like it was a dedicated AA vehicle with no room for anything else but but crew, so are the 2cm versions of the 251 used as platoon commander vehicles really field conversions?

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Ian

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Christian Ankerstjerne
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Re: Sd.Kfz 17

Post by Christian Ankerstjerne » 05 Sep 2020 21:17

The Panzer-Division 1944 had one armored and one unarmored Panzer-Grenadier-Regiment. The armored one (Panzer-Grenadier-Regiment (gepanzert)) had two battalions, one armored and one unarmored. The armored one had four Panzer-Grenadier-Kompanie (gepanzert), using the 1 July 1944 KStN 1114 c (gp) table of organization and equipment, alternatively as a Panzer-Aufklärungs-Kompanie (gepanzert).

The 1 November 1943 KStN 1114 c (gp) had the following complement of armored half-tracks:
  • Kompanietrupp: 2 Sd kfz 251/17
  • Panzerzerstörer-Trupp: 1 Sd kfz 251/17
  • 1. Zug
    • Zugtrupp: 1 Sd kfz 251/17
    • 1. Gruppe: 1 Sd kfz 251/1
    • 2. Gruppe: 1 Sd kfz 251/1
    • 3. Gruppe: 1 Sd kfz 251/1
  • 2. Zug
    • Zugtrupp: 1 Sd kfz 251/17
    • 1. Gruppe: 1 Sd kfz 251/1
    • 2. Gruppe: 1 Sd kfz 251/1
    • 3. Gruppe: 1 Sd kfz 251/1
  • 3. Zug
    • Zugtrupp: 1 Sd kfz 251/17
    • 1. Gruppe: 1 Sd kfz 251/1
    • 2. Gruppe: 1 Sd kfz 251/1
    • 3. Gruppe: 1 Sd kfz 251/1
  • 4. Zug
    • Zugtrupp: 1 Sd kfz 251/17
    • 1. (s M G) Gruppe: 1 Sd kfz 251/17
    • 2. (s M G) Gruppe: 1 Sd kfz 251/17
    • 3. (Gr W) Gruppe: 2 Sd kfz 251/2
    • 4. (Kan) Gruppe: 2 Sd kfz 251/9
This differ slightly from the 1944 version referenced for the Panzer-Division 1944, which mentions 23 rather than 22 armored half-tracks, but only seven rather than nine 2 cm Flak.

This is of course all theoretical. In reality, most units would not have their full, authorized strength.

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Re: Sd.Kfz 17

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 06 Sep 2020 18:13

Ian, Firstly, I hope that you're looking at the correct 251/17, the one with the simple pintle mounting in the back and not the one with the entire 2cm Flak38 in the back with redesigned side plates.

It is quite simple, if a unit was issued with the 251/17 and very few were, then the 251/17 replaced the 251/10 with the platoon commander's group on board and also the MMG groups in the heavy platoon. If you look closely at the 251/17 then you will see that the gun mount was relatively small and there was really plenty of room for a few men in the rear two sets of seats
Alan

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Re: Sd.Kfz 17

Post by yantaylor » 06 Sep 2020 21:21

Hi Alan and Christian.

Exactly my point, the term 251/17 must cover all the different 251s which had a 2cm gun. I don't think that the AA version with the folding sides would be issued as a platoon command vehicle, so obviously it is the version with the 2cm mounted in place of the standard front mounted MG.

I have seen different mounts for the 2cm and some look like they are field conversion whilst others are more elaborate with a small turret covering the 2cm.

Ian

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Re: Sd.Kfz 17

Post by Christian Ankerstjerne » 06 Sep 2020 22:14

According to Schützenpanzer by Culver and Feist, the variant with collapsible sides was built for the anti-aircraft regiment of the Hermann Göring division, with a total of 10 armed vehicles built.

The vehicle referred to in the KStN above would be the one with the small turret. To support Alan's point, in the KStN, one of the instances of the 251/17 has originally been written as 251/10, but crossed over and corrected. The vehicle makes sense as a heavy support weapon, and I suspect that it (and the Sd Kfz 251/21) may have been inspired by the wide-spread use of 12.7 mm machine guns used by the Soviets and the Americans.

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Re: Sd.Kfz 17

Post by yantaylor » 07 Sep 2020 11:06

I agree Christian, the 251/17 was probably going to take the place of the 251/10.
I remember a discussion about this on this board and a few members posted photos of 2cm mounted 251s and they seemed to be field modifications, none of them had a small turret.

Problem I have is that I am currently building Pz Gren company mounted in 251s circa mid 44 and I don't know which version to use a platoon HQ vehicle or leMG vehicles. As far as I know there are no kits of the 251/17 but there are some of the 251/10.
Question is could both of them be in service around the same time during the Normandy campaign.

Ian

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Re: Sd.Kfz 17

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 07 Sep 2020 11:53

Ian, there is no evidence of any SdKfz 251/17 in Normandy, too early.
Alan

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Re: Sd.Kfz 17

Post by yantaylor » 08 Sep 2020 12:31

Thanks Alan, so I will keep to 251/10s for now, but was this vehicle in wide spread use in Normandy and would every armoured panzer grenadier battalion have this varient?

Ian

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Re: Sd.Kfz 17

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 08 Sep 2020 20:49

I know that 9, 10 and 12 SS all had them.
Alan

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Re: Sd.Kfz 17

Post by yantaylor » 09 Sep 2020 13:24

Thanks Alan, I must admit going to use the 10 SS. as my division of choice you last post do say that they had Sd.Kfz 251/10s, but the reason I never chose this division before was because of Nafziger as he has this data;

21. SS Panzer Grenadier Regt. [5.11.44]
1-3. Halftrack Companies each containing;
4 x HMGs, 40 x LMGs, 2 x 8cm Mortars, 7 x 2cm Guns & 2 x 7.5cm IGs.

As you can see, he must have thought that these companies had 251/17s and not 10s as there is no 3.7cm guns in sight.
It also lists no StuG III Battalion but lists StuG IIIs them in the 2. panzer battalion, so I don’t know if this is right or not.

Ian

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Re: Sd.Kfz 17

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 09 Sep 2020 18:37

I did tell you on another thread that 10 had StuG IIIs in its 2nd Panzer Bn. Nafziger is full of errors, sadly.
Alan

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Re: Sd.Kfz 17

Post by yantaylor » 09 Sep 2020 20:15

Yes you did Alan, sorry I didn't make that clear. I was trying to see if Nafziger had made yet another mistake.
George has also written that the 2. SS PD & 10. SS PD had Sd. Kfz 234/3s, I think is also wrong, I was aware of the Sd. Kfz 234/2 Puma being around in Normandy, but not the 234/3.

As you know by now, I am trying to mainly pin down certain vehicles for my panzer division and I have kept these vehicles to a minimum, here are the the main vehicles;

Panthers
Panzer IVs
StuG IIIs
Marder IIIs
Flak Panzer 38(t)
Grille Ausf M
Sd. Kfz 231 & 232
Sd. Kfz 250 variants
Sd. Kfz 251 variants

As you can see it is not a huge list, but the problem is really to have them all in the same division circa June 44.

Ian

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Re: Sd.Kfz 17

Post by spannermann » 10 Sep 2020 09:26

Hi,
I think this is the kind of unit you are trying to copy, this photo shows six 251/7 and a 251/10 of the IV Zug (pioneer) of 5/SS PzAA 10 in Normandy, this unit was organised according to K.S.t.N 1124a (gp) of 1.3.1943 .

The I Zug of 1/SS PzAA 10 also consisted of three 231 and three 232 organised according to K.S.t.N 1162 of 1.11.1943. Ignore the "yellow" vehicles they are not finished yet.

Note that the Panther battalion of 10SS PzDiv was never in Normandy, nor, I believe, did they have any Flak 38(t) .

cheers PAUL
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yantaylor
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Re: Sd.Kfz 17

Post by yantaylor » 10 Sep 2020 11:17

They look great Paul, thanks for the info!
BTW; what model kits are those and in what scale.
Ian

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Re: Sd.Kfz 17

Post by spannermann » 10 Sep 2020 13:27

Hi, Good and simple models from Plastic Soldier all at 1/72. I do not do "comlex" models anymore.

cheers PAUL

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