Sd.Kfz 17

Discussions on the vehicles used by the Axis forces. Hosted by Christian Ankerstjerne
yantaylor
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Re: Sd.Kfz 17

Post by yantaylor » 16 Sep 2020 20:14

Just a quick request; the figures I am using for the panzer grenadier company are Revell 1/72 late war Germans. The problem I have is that I am three LMG teams short and seeing that I would have to spend around £30-40 to buy two boxes just for three LMG teams is just not worth the cost.
I wonder if any knows anyone who has three LMG teams and are willing to sell?
Or even a place were the model kit is not so dear.

Here is the figures;
172-German-Infantry-Wwii-Revell-2502-_1 (2).jpg
I had the same problem building my German Infantry Company, they too are Revell, the panzer grenadier box and I need just one of these figures, yes just one, to complete my company.
Man I was fizzing. Here is the begger;
1a78292a0339 (2).jpg
Ian
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Leo Niehorster
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Re: Sd.Kfz 17

Post by Leo Niehorster » 17 Sep 2020 08:01

yantaylor wrote:
16 Sep 2020 13:49
BTW; In the KNsTs, you do get various letters relating to various personnel, for example "K" next to an officer and R and P next to others, what does this mean?

Ian
The letters in the column to the left of the designations indicate the billet group (Stellengruppe).
See Military personnel Billet Groups, Functions, and Ranks Discussed

I don't recall seeing a "P" billet.
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yantaylor
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Re: Sd.Kfz 17

Post by yantaylor » 17 Sep 2020 13:55

Hi Leo, yes there is a letter (P) after the stretcher bearer located in the company headquarters: http://niehorster.org/011_germany/44_or ... c(gp).html

The NCO/Armoured radio mechanic located at CHQ, has the term “motor vehicle escort” next to him, I have seen this term many times, so just what does this refer to?

Ian

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Leo Niehorster
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Re: Sd.Kfz 17

Post by Leo Niehorster » 18 Sep 2020 09:12

1/ Sorry, my mistake. I thought you were referring to original German KStN.
The (K) =Kompanieführer = company commander, and (Z) =Zugführer = platoon leader, are officer billets. (See link above).
The (P) is to the right indicates that the stretcher bearer was armed with a Pistol. Should have written it out.
Nice to have errors pointed out. Try never be the only one to proofread your own material.

2/ Basically, “motor vehicle escort” (German: Kraftwagen-Beifahrer) is a second person permanently assigned (aka co-driver) to the motor vehicle, who assists the driver in all tasks associated with driving, maintaining, and caring for the motor vehicle.

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Alanmccoubrey
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Re: Sd.Kfz 17

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 18 Sep 2020 11:08

yantaylor wrote:
16 Sep 2020 20:06
Why Alan, Christian posted this the other day and seeing that the Sd. Kfz 251/17 was made to replace the 251/10, I would keep the 10 because I have this version in my batch of models.

The 1 November 1943 KStN 1114 c (gp) had the following complement of armored half-tracks:
• Kompanietrupp: 2 x Sd kfz 251/17
• Panzerzerstörer-Trupp: 1 x Sd kfz 251/17

Ian
Ian, that is neither logical nor true. Firstly the SdKfz 251/17 was not made to replace the 251/10, it was merely used to replace it in the KStN in one instance, you dont draw the same conclusion for the sMG Trupp in the schwere zug do you ? And yet the 251/17 was used to replace the 251/1 originally used to carry the sMG.
Alan

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Re: Sd.Kfz 17

Post by spannermann » 18 Sep 2020 12:03

Hi Ian,
The 251/17 was already being manufactured in far greater numbers than the 251/10 ever had been, and was planned to be an even bigger percentage of total production. Essentially it was the new concept for armoured infantry, its gun being both anti-aircraft and anti-infantry, and as Alan says may have replaced some 251/10's but thats just progress.

Thanks to new designs, this larger gun took up much less space than previous versions of a 2cm gun. So replaceing the sMG 251 made a lot of sense as the 251/17 was an even heavier MG if you like, and the need to upgrade support to the infantry was urgent, and the 251/17 was planned to have a much more widespread usage than the sMG version.

cheers PAUL

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Re: Sd.Kfz 17

Post by yantaylor » 18 Sep 2020 13:37

Alanmccoubrey wrote:
18 Sep 2020 11:08
yantaylor wrote:
16 Sep 2020 20:06
Why Alan, Christian posted this the other day and seeing that the Sd. Kfz 251/17 was made to replace the 251/10, I would keep the 10 because I have this version in my batch of models.

The 1 November 1943 KStN 1114 c (gp) had the following complement of armored half-tracks:
• Kompanietrupp: 2 x Sd kfz 251/17
• Panzerzerstörer-Trupp: 1 x Sd kfz 251/17

Ian
Ian, that is neither logical nor true. Firstly the SdKfz 251/17 was not made to replace the 251/10, it was merely used to replace it in the KStN in one instance, you dont draw the same conclusion for the sMG Trupp in the schwere zug do you ? And yet the 251/17 was used to replace the 251/1 originally used to carry the sMG.
True Alan, you are right and I was wrong to suggest that, but I was only posting up what Christian put up which states that the HQ had two 251/17s and another for the AT Section.
I didn't think that the HQ had 251/17s until I saw Christians post.

Ian

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Re: Sd.Kfz 17

Post by yantaylor » 18 Sep 2020 13:45

Hi Paul, I knew from Leo's work that the sMG halftrack was a 251/17, yes you are right it does make sense to arm this vehicle and the PHQ vehicles with 251/17.
Have you notice just how many Panzerschrecks the company has, apparently each of the infantry section 251/1s have one, plus the ones in the AT/Section located in the CHQ. There was a total of 13 in the company.

Ian

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Re: Sd.Kfz 17

Post by yantaylor » 19 Sep 2020 20:22

Leo Niehorster wrote:
18 Sep 2020 09:12
1/ Sorry, my mistake. I thought you were referring to original German KStN.
The (K) =Kompanieführer = company commander, and (Z) =Zugführer = platoon leader, are officer billets. (See link above).
The (P) is to the right indicates that the stretcher bearer was armed with a Pistol. Should have written it out.
Nice to have errors pointed out. Try never be the only one to proofread your own material.

2/ Basically, “motor vehicle escort” (German: Kraftwagen-Beifahrer) is a second person permanently assigned (aka co-driver) to the motor vehicle, who assists the driver in all tasks associated with driving, maintaining, and caring for the motor vehicle.

--
Leo
Thank you Leo, but can I ask you another question please, in the link http://niehorster.org/011_germany/44_or ... 3(gp).htmlI noticed that the 1st platoon headquarters has two stretcher bearers, is that a typo or did they have two, If they did, would they be located in the sdkfz 250/1?
I have been looking at this page on your site for help on this unit and how the various soldiers travelled in what halftrack, as I am having trouble locating gunners for the Sd.Kfz 251/8s.
Did the 250/8 see action in normady?

Ian

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Leo Niehorster
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Re: Sd.Kfz 17

Post by Leo Niehorster » 20 Sep 2020 09:07

Oops. :oops:
One Stretcher Bearer (Pistol) in each rifle platoon should read Gunner [Panzerschütze], also armed with a Pistol.

Please note, (R) is rifle. (SMG) is submachine-gun.

I don't think the ambulance version of the mSPW (Sd.Kfz. 251/8) had a machine gun, and hence no gunner. (Wait: you meant the leSPW 250/8 gunner: the answer is in the first paragraph above.) :wink:

Unfortunately, detailed records of specific armored halftrack strengths were not normally reported. Very rarely have I seen such a listing, and usually only for internal use. However, sometimes the units added an organizational diagram to their status reports, and if you can locate one, the 250/8 is indicated by a 7.5cm cannon symbol (with either a lowercase "s" or the number "7,5" to the right) in the light armored reconnaissance company.

I cannot upload any changes to my site at the present, as biblio is having some issues with "new host keyfingerprints", and I cannot access their server.
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Last edited by Leo Niehorster on 20 Sep 2020 18:31, edited 1 time in total.
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yantaylor
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Re: Sd.Kfz 17

Post by yantaylor » 20 Sep 2020 14:32

Thanks Leo, as I have said before many times, I praise you website very highly indeed.

Still a bit unsure about both the 250/8 and 250/10, as Chamberlain and Doyle say that only a small number of 250/8s were made on the Alte chassis in early 1943 and it was not until the fall of 44 when the 250/8 Neu was put into production.
There is no 250/10s in your page in the link, I thought that they would be platoon leader vehicles, but I can't find any?

Ian

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Re: Sd.Kfz 17

Post by yantaylor » 20 Sep 2020 14:37

Did this unit have any MMGs? I cant find any sMG 250/1s?

Looking at the KSTN for this unt, we see that the Infantry platoon vehicles acted in pairs, with one led by a NCO and the other by a stellv.Gruppenführer, what rank is that, was it sililar to a PFC?.

Ian

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Re: Sd.Kfz 17

Post by yantaylor » 20 Sep 2020 15:04

I have had a go at spliting the platoon HQ between its two halftracks, but it looks like all the NCOs are in one vehicle along with the commanding officer, which dose not sit right at all, so would the 250/8 have an NCO giving it a crew of say three? that leaves five for the 250/1.

Ian

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Leo Niehorster
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Re: Sd.Kfz 17

Post by Leo Niehorster » 20 Sep 2020 18:58

Light Armored Rifle Company
I have the KStN and a diagram for the 01.03.1942 KStN 1113(gp); combining with the text KStN, I get:
[P = pistol; SMG = submachine-gun; R = rifle; LMG = light machine-gun; HMG = heavy machine-gun]
[Note: all leSPW had 1 LMG & 1 SMG in addition to the weapons noted at the end of the line.]

Company Headquarters:
- 250/3 : company commander (P); company headquarters leader(SMG); radioman (R); driver (R).
- 250/3 : medical NCO (P); 1 radioman (R)(also bugler); 1 radioman (R)(also messenger); driver (R).
- 4 motorcycles : 4 messengers (R).
- 1 motorcycle with sidecar : driver (R); motor sergeant (R).

3 Rifle Platoons, each with:
Platoon Headquarters:
- 250/1 : platoon leader (SMG); platoon headquarters leader (P); stretcher bearer (P); messenger (R)(also bugler); driver (R).
- 250/10 : NCO gun team leader (P); 2 gunners (P); driver (R). [37mm antitank gun]
3 Sections, each with [1]:
- 250/1 : section leader (SMG); 4 MG gunners; driver (R). [1 LMG]
- 250/1 : deputy section leader (R); 4 MG gunners; driver (R). [1 LMG]

1 Heavy Platoon:
Platoon Headquarters:
- 250/1 : platoon leader (SMG); platoon headquarters leader (P); stretcher bearer (P); messenger (R) (also bugler); driver (R).
- motorcycle: messenger (R)
2 HMG Sections, each with: [2]
- 250/1 : section leader (P); distance measurer (P); 2 ammo handlers (R); driver (R).
- 250/1 : gun team leader (SMG); 4 assistant gunners; driver (R). [1 HMG]
- 250/1 : gun team leader (SMG); 4 assistant gunners; driver (R). [1 HMG]
1 Mortar Section: [3]
- 250/7 : section leader (SMG): 2 gunners (both also telephonists); armorer (P) (also distance measurer); driver (R).
- 250/7 : team leader (P); 2 gunners (one of which was the mortar team leader); drive (R)r. [1 mortar]
- 250/7 : team leader (P); 2 gunners (one of which was the mortar team leader); driver (R). [1 mortar]
- 250/7 : 4 gunners; driver (R). [ammo vehicle]

Maintenance Section:
- motorcycle with sidecar : technical senior sergeant (motor) (P); driver (R); armor technician (R).
- light cc car : driver (R) (also armor technician); electrician (R); motor mechanic (R).
- light cc car : driver (R) (also motor mechanic); signal technician (R); motor mechanic (R).
- 1-ton halftrack : driver (R) (also motor mechanic); 1 armor mechanic (R); 2 motor mechanics (also MG gunners) (one with (P) and one with (R)). [1 LMG]

Combat Trains:
- medium cc car : first sergeant (P); armorer NCO (P); assistant armorer (P); driver [R].
- light cc truck : Tool NCO (R); clerk (R); driver (R). [fuel]
- medium cc truck : cook sergeant; cook; driver (R). [large field kitchen]
- medium cc truck : 2 cooks (R); driver (R). [large field kitchen]

Baggage Trains:
- medium 3-ton truck : NCO pay clerk (R); cobbler (R); tailor (R); driver (R).

[1] 12 gunners with rifles, 12 with pistols.
[2] 4 gunners with rifles, 4 with pistols.
[3] 4 gunners with rifles, 6 with pistols.

Hope that helps
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yantaylor
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Re: Sd.Kfz 17

Post by yantaylor » 20 Sep 2020 19:49

Outstanding Leo.

Thank you very much.

Ian

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