Sd.Kfz 17

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yantaylor
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Re: Sd.Kfz 17

Post by yantaylor » 21 Sep 2020 12:04

I am wondering if that KStN was still in use until the 250/8 Neu came into production. This seems to be in the fall of 44.
This KStN would mean that the 250/10 was in use for fire support.
So would this KStN be in most or maybe all of the Panzer and Panzer Grenadier Divisions before and during the Normandy campaign?

Ian

yantaylor
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Re: Sd.Kfz 17

Post by yantaylor » 21 Sep 2020 20:19

Leo, there is a NCO motor vehicle driver located in the company HQ in the KStN 1114c (GP) http://www.wwiidaybyday.com/kstn/kstn1114cgp1nov43.htmwhich states that he drives the ZGKW, which as I understand is a 8t halftrack. There is one of those located in motor vehicle maintenance section. does this mean that one of the NCOs in the CHQ was in the maintenance section?

Ian

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Leo Niehorster
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Re: Sd.Kfz 17

Post by Leo Niehorster » 22 Sep 2020 09:06

New KStN were valid for all units' reports upon publishing, even though the corresponding reorganization might be (probably was) delayed for months for most units, except when they were completely rebuilt and refitted. However, I doubt any unit still had a March 1942 KStN by the Fall of 1944, If not the 01.04.44 ones, certainly the 01.11.43 ones, with some modifications as per the AHM.

By 1944, vehicles authorized by KStN did not necessarily mean they were present in a unit. Units made do with what they could get. Like I wrote above, you have to look at the diagrams attahced to the division reports.

The box g) Kfz.-Instandsetzungstrupp of http://www.wwiidaybyday.com/kstn/kstn1114cgp1nov43.htm has a minor mistake.

The copy I have of KStN 1114(gp) dated 01.11.1943 lists the following for the maintenance section:
43-11-01_11114(gp)_page d.jpg
[Taken with my iphone — I still don't have a scanner — hence the poor quality.]

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yantaylor
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Re: Sd.Kfz 17

Post by yantaylor » 22 Sep 2020 11:18

Thanks Leo.

I don't really know what to do then, replace the 250/10s with 250/8s, but we are talking about June 44 here and would the 250/8 Neu be available by then.
I have no totals on how many 250/8 Alte were in fact made, one report says only a few so your guess is as good as mine.

I just wonder what they used in the interim period, did the panzer units in Normandy stick with the 250/10 as a gun support vehicle or were they lucky enough to have some 250/8 Alte vehicles.

Ian

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Re: Sd.Kfz 17

Post by Denniss » 22 Sep 2020 13:17

Please replace 250 Alt/Neu with 250 Ausf. A/B, no idea who invented alt/neu but was probably never used or just a temporary designation

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Leo Niehorster
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Re: Sd.Kfz 17

Post by Leo Niehorster » 22 Sep 2020 13:24

From
J. Dougdale & M. Wood
"Panzer Divisions, Panzergrenadier Divisions, Panzer Brigades of the Army and Waffen-SS in the West, April –September 1944"
=Normandy=
Military Press, Milton Keynes, 2008

Dougdale did only these two volumes covering Normandy/mid-1944.

Vol II [Part I A]
1 SS Pz Div, SS-PzAufkl-Abt 1

01.06.44
Page 53
All 5 Kp awaiting delivery of armored halftracks.

01.07.44
Page 72
1. Kp = [awaiting delivery of 250/5 & 250/9]
2. Kp: 93% Armoured (28 Lt APC, including 24×250/1, 2×250/3, 2×250/7).
3. Kp: 60% Armoured (14 m APC, 2 lt APC, many undergoing maintenance).
4. Kp = heavy

01.08.44
page 100
1. Kp = [awaiting delivery of 250/5 & 250/9]
2. Kp: 83% Armoured (25 lt APC, including 21×250/1, 2×250/3, 2×250/7).
3. Kp: 52% Armoured (12 m APC) [Company awaiting delivery of 2×251/9 & 9×251/17]
4. Kp = heavy



Vol II [Part I B]
12 SS Pz Div, SS-PzAufkl-Abt 12

03.04.44
Page 24
1. Kp = armored cars
2. Kp = 250/5 & 250/9
3. Kp: 110% Armoured (32 lt APC, 2 m APC; including 27×250/1; 1×250/3; 3×250/10 [3×3.7cm Pak 36]; 2×251/2).
4. Kp: 116% Armoured (34 lt APC, 2 m APC; including 33×250/1; 1×250/3; 2×251/2).
5. Kp = heavy

01.06.44
page 50
1. Kp = armored cars
2. Kp = 250/5 & 250/9
3. Kp: 123% Armoured (37 lt APC; including 30×250/1; 2×250/3; 2×250/7, 3×250/10 [3×3.7cm Pak 36]).
4. Kp: 123% Armoured (37 lt APC; including 33×250/1; 2×250/3; 2×250/7).
5. Kp = heavy


27.06.44
Page 72
1. Kp = 250/5 & 250/9
2. Kp: 100% Armoured (30 Lt APC, including 25×250/1, 2×250/3, 2×250/7, 1×250/8).
3. Kp: 100% Armoured (30 Lt APC, including 26×250/1, 2×250/3, 2×250/7).
4. Kp = heavy

03.08.33
1. Kp = 250/5 & 250/9
2. Kp: 103% Armoured (31 Lt APC, including 25×250/1, 2×250/3, 2×250/7, 2×250/8).
3. Kp: 103% Armoured (30 Lt APC, 2×m APC, including 26×250/1, 2×250/3, 2×250/7, 2×251/9).
4. Kp = heavy

Maybe someone else has the vehicle numbers/types for the June—August 1944 periods.

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yantaylor
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Re: Sd.Kfz 17

Post by yantaylor » 22 Sep 2020 19:29

Great stuff Leo, looks like the 12. SS had their fare share of APCs.

Here is a breakdown of the types of 250 found in both divisions;

250/1
250/3
250/5
250/7
250/8
250/10

Also the 251s;
251/2
251/9
251/17

Ian

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Re: Sd.Kfz 17

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 22 Sep 2020 20:01

Leo, do you think that we can trust Dugdale ? He never cites any sources and that inclusion of an SdKfz 250/8 with HJ seems very suspect to me. Using the figures given in Fire Brigades the Division didn't have any new 250s issued between January (41) and October 1944 so where did such a vehicle come from ?

Ian HJ didn't have any 251/17 in Normandy, I thought we'd all agreed that no one did in Normandy.
Alan

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Leo Niehorster
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Re: Sd.Kfz 17

Post by Leo Niehorster » 23 Sep 2020 09:27

@Alan
I don't know Dugdale personally. He claims to use original documents. Well, so do I, and so does WWIIdaybyday. And other authors. And we make mistakes in transcription. So, there could be mistakes in Dugdale.

Possibly Panzer Tracts No. 15-1 -" leichter Schuetzenpanzerwagen" might have information regarding models and their deliveries.

@Sd.Kfz. 251/17
Again, possibly Panzer Tracts No. 15-3: Mittlerer Schützenpanzerwagen (Sd.Kfz.251) Ausf. C & D and/or Panzer Tracts No. 15-4: Schützenpanzer Sd.Kfz.251 to Vollketten M.S.P. Final Developments of the Kätzchen have an answer to the mSPW 251/17 discussion.

I don't have these Panzer Tracts volumes.

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yantaylor
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Re: Sd.Kfz 17

Post by yantaylor » 23 Sep 2020 13:56

Alanmccoubrey wrote:
22 Sep 2020 20:01
Ian HJ didn't have any 251/17 in Normandy, I thought we'd all agreed that no one did in Normandy.
Hi Alan, yes, I know that we decided that the 251/17 didn’t serve in Normandy and I have added 251/10s in my company instead of the 251/17.
The post I wrote above was a generalisation of what Leo posted. I simply tried to show the types of APCs each of the divisions had during 1944. As you can see in Leo’s post, the 251/17 was in the part dated 01.08.44.

I have been badgering about with these APCs for some months now, probably getting on everyone’s wick “LOL”, but that is the way I work and thanks to yourself, Leo and Gary and a cast of support acts, we have achieved some good results.

For example, when I mention about 250s being found in panzer grenadier companies, well looking at Leo’s post, we have 251s being used in recce units.
I still have work to do, mainly 250/10 being used as platoon command vehicles in Normandy and the amount of 251/10s in an armoured company, but we are getting there.

Ian

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Re: Sd.Kfz 17

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 23 Sep 2020 17:52

Leo, looking at the figures from Fire Brigades, these come from Martin Block who does cite his sources, LAH didn't receive any new 251s between June and October 1944 so I have to wonder again where the 9 x 251/17 in schwere Kompnaie came from. They weren't in the June or July figures given by Dugdale but are in the August figures.
As for you "claiming" to use original documents we can believe you because you just posted a photograph of such documents ! :D

Ian, because a specialist mortar carrier 251 is used in the recce companies does not logically lead to 250 being used in a panzergrenadier company. Recce battalions also used the SdKfz 251/9 Stummel in their heavy companies well before the 250 version became available.
Alan

yantaylor
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Re: Sd.Kfz 17

Post by yantaylor » 23 Sep 2020 19:38

Well after going through picking out traffic lights, bicycles and pedestrian crossings just to log on! I remember us having a similar conversation viewtopic.php?f=47&t=249977&start=15

Ian

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Re: Sd.Kfz 17

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 25 Sep 2020 11:20

Ian, if you are intending doing HJ SdKfz 250s then you need to see this thread with their field modifications in Normandy.

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/archive ... .html#p107
Alan

yantaylor
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Re: Sd.Kfz 17

Post by yantaylor » 26 Sep 2020 19:25

Very helpful Alan, thanks!

I am still havent made up my mind on which division to use as a base for my figures and vehicles, I was thinking of checking out 21. Pz but if I recall they mainly had old Panzer IVs and a batch of stuff converted out of old French stock.

Ian

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Re: Sd.Kfz 17

Post by yantaylor » 03 Oct 2020 14:01

Sorry to carry this on guys, but did the panzer grenadiers in the 21. Panzer circa June 44, ware camouflage smocks? I am sure that I have seen photos of Rommel inspecting a self-propelled artillery battery and the gunners had what looked like camo smocks, but would these be also issued to the panzer grenadiers and more importantly would they be in a similar colour scheme to the SS versions like Plane tree etc.

Thanks
Ian

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