Guderian Panzer 38s

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Jarnob
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Guderian Panzer 38s

#1

Post by Jarnob » 20 Jan 2021, 22:16

Hi all,

I guess im overlooking something but cant seem to find the answer... I have a book with some photographs of Panzer 38s in France with the G marking on their front hull. Stating these being Panzergruppe Guderian vehicles of the 7th PzDiv.
Now it seems PzGruppe Guderian had the 1st, 2nd and 10th PzDivs under its command. None using the panzer 38 (only 7th en 8th PzDiv used them in France).
How can this be?? The photographs look indeed on the westfront 1940.

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Re: Guderian Panzer 38s

#2

Post by arminfreitag » 20 Jan 2021, 23:10

Hi Jarnob
Panzergruppe Guderian consisted of
XXXIX. Armeekorps (mot.) with
1. Panzer-Division, 2. Panzer-Division and 29. Infanterie-Division (mot.)
and
XXXXI. Armeekorps (mot.) with
6. Panzer-Division, 8. Panzer-Division and 20. Infanterie-Division (mot.).
So the Pz 38 (t) belonged to 8. Panzer-Division.

Regards
Armin


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Jarnob
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Re: Guderian Panzer 38s

#3

Post by Jarnob » 21 Jan 2021, 19:53

Hi Armin,

thank you very much for your answer!
I guess the book i have has it wrong; is has Panzer 38's wearing 'G' markings as 7th Panzer Division panzers and Panzer 38's wearing 'K' markings as 8th Panzer Division panzers - the latter could be right.

Reading up orbats reveal the next info if i'm correct:

Fall Gelb:
-Gruppe Kleist (vehicles could wear the 'K' marking)
--XIV Korps
--XIX Korps (under Guderian): 1st / 2nd / 10th Panzer Divisions
--XXXXI Korps: 6th / 8th Panzer Divisions

Fall Rot:
-Gruppe Guderian was formed after Dunkirk (vehicles could wear the 'G' marking)
--XXXIX Korps: 1st / 2nd Panzer Division
--XXXXI Korps: 6th / 8th Panzer Divisions

*the 8th Panzer Division in this summary is the only division using Panzer 38's.

So Panzer 38's during the France campaign wearing 'K' would be 8th Panzer Division during Fall Gelb or Fall Rot.
And Panzer 38's during the France campaign wearing the 'G' would be definitely 8th Panzer Division during Fall Rot.


*Were the 'K' and 'G' markings also used during the invasion of Russia?
*Was the 'K' still used during Fall Rot? If so 8th Panzer Division panzer 38's would be wearing these markings randomly during that period?

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Re: Guderian Panzer 38s

#4

Post by Brevity » 22 Jan 2021, 19:50

Hey Jarnob
Armin is right.

Gruppe Kleist in May 1940 - 1, 2, 6, 8, 10 Pz.Div.
All of them used the K marking on their vehicles, but only 2. and 8. Pz.Div. had them on tanks in Panzer-Regiments.
The G marking was not used in May 1940.

Gruppe Kleist in June 1940 - 3, 4, 9, 10 Pz.Div.
10 Pz.Div. continued using the K mark (not on tanks, softkins only) but no other unit adopted it.
Gruppe Guderian in June 1940 - 1, 2, 6, 8 Pz.Divs.
All units adopted the G marking, but again, only 2. and 8. Pz.Div use them on tanks in Panzer-Regiments.

K and G were still used in 1941, but neither panzer group had any Czech tanks. No K and no G on any Pz. 38(t) in Russia.

So if there is a photo of Pz.38(t) with the K marking, then it's advancing in May 1940.
If it has the G, then it's June 1940.

Hope it helps, Jerry.

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Re: Guderian Panzer 38s

#5

Post by Jarnob » 23 Jan 2021, 09:27

Thank you so much for your info Jerry and Armin.
Sometimes confusing when books have wrong info stated!

Kind regards, Jarno

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Re: Guderian Panzer 38s

#6

Post by Jarnob » 24 Feb 2021, 20:35

Hi guys, mind bogling again.
I found this photograph of a Befehlspanzer 38 of a staff signals platoon.
In its front it has the following symbols:
7th PzDiv - Signals Plt.- K........

How come? K always stands for PzGr Kleist right.
The 7th never served with this pz.gr..... any thoughts??
20210224_191407_copy_907x1163.jpg

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Re: Guderian Panzer 38s

#7

Post by arminfreitag » 25 Feb 2021, 14:00

Hi Jarnob.
sorry I have no idea why this Befehlspz shows a K marking when it definitely belongs to 7th Pzdiv.
Maybe someone else can enlighten us.
Here are some pictures of seemingly the same vehicle with and without the K marking.

Regards Armin
Attachments
Bef 38 (t) 4.jpg
Bef 38 (t) 4.jpg (93.19 KiB) Viewed 2102 times
Bef 38 (t) 3.jpg
Bef 38 (t) 2.jpg
Bef 38 (t) 1.jpg
Bef 38 (t) 1.jpg (80.18 KiB) Viewed 2102 times

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Re: Guderian Panzer 38s

#8

Post by Jarnob » 26 Feb 2021, 11:44

Hi Armin,

thanx for the photographs.
The 7th / Kleist combination is confusing. When examing the Army Groups and Army's none can be found connecting each other.
Except an entry in lexicon-der-wehrmacht website:
After Fall Rot, after the French surrender of 21.06.1940, it has an entry on the 7th Panzer Division stating it being subordinate to 'Kleist/4.' between 24.6.1940 and 12.7.1941. This means the 7th could be temporarily marked with a 'K' if this information is correct.

Now the Army Group A - which held the old Kleist group divisions and Guderian panzergroup - was only active in Eastern France.
Not Western France like the 7th PzDiv. This makes it strange again.
The changes and switches between Armee Groups/Army's and Divisions were somewhat confusing in this period, preparing the German army for the coming campaigns. This would make is possible again to se the 7th under Kleist (temporarily).
But why would they mark a panzer with 'K' for such a short period... Maybe because it was a Staff vehicle or maybe it was a former Kleist gruppe panzer... assumptions :)

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Re: Guderian Panzer 38s

#9

Post by arminfreitag » 26 Feb 2021, 23:16

Hi Jarnob
As it mentioned above Pz 38 (t) with the K or G marking should be 8th Pzdiv.
I checked my files for the Pz 38 (t) and found only few panzers with those markings.
Here are the ones witk K.
Regards
Armin
Attachments
Ausf A 4.jpg
Ausf A 4.jpg (92.21 KiB) Viewed 2011 times
Ausf A 3.jpg
Ausf A 2.jpg
Ausf A 1.jpg

arminfreitag
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Re: Guderian Panzer 38s

#10

Post by arminfreitag » 26 Feb 2021, 23:18

Here are the pictures I found wit the G marking.
Regards
Armin
Attachments
zalb0aa.JPG
ISGYY.JPG
blomer-5.jpg
2011-08-11-075.jpg

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Re: Guderian Panzer 38s

#11

Post by Jarnob » 27 Feb 2021, 21:06

Thank you for the photographs Armin!

I found something more about the 7th Pzdiv 'K' marked Befpz38.
According to 'The 7th Panzer Division' by Hasso von Manteuffel the Gruppe Kleist was located in the Heeresgruppe B area of the 7th Panzer Division at the start of Fall Rot. Heeresgruppe A (from which the 7th Pzdiv AND Gruppe Kleist originated) and the Pzgruppe Guderian were located to the east.
So the 7th Pzdiv and Kleist were located in the same area for a short time.
20210227_194713.jpg
According to several information books, also Nafziger's 'The German order of battle Panzers and Artillery', the 7th Pzdiv had nog divisional staff tanks.

This Befehslpanzer 38 has a large divisional tactical symbol on its hull mg cover.
In my opinion this photograph shows a (single?) 7th Pzdiv Divisional Staff panzer - around the Fall Rot period.
Could be a lost/forgotten piece of information. Anyways, very interesting.

regards
Jarno

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