"Hetzer" (Jagdpanzer 38) Armor Quality, allegedly 50% the value of RHA?

[Mobius]

Unless I am mistaken, the only projectiles that can 'reduce' effective armor thickness for slopes are either massively larger diameter shells, and APFSDS projectiles. The 85mm might overmatch the 50mm plate a lot, but for a 60-65mm plate I'm just not seeing it. Especially with Soviet quality control and shell design.

Isn't there a picture on this very thread which shows non-pens to the LFP?

Thats because it doesnt "reduce" the effective armour thickness. It's an illusion born from the inherently flawed concept that is the "effective armour thickness" that spawned a myth that soviet blunt tipped AP shells are much more effective against sloped armour than the conventional sharp tipped AP.
It's actually the other way around: the soviet shells are just less bad against thin plates at slope and penetrate about as much as an AP shell of their mass and caliber would. To put in into perspective: a 9,2kg 85mm APCBC shell fired at 800m/s would penetrate about 145mm/0° at 100m, if it had a more advanced design, similar to that of the shells of western nations. If we use this metric to measure how powerful a given gun is, it shouldnt surprise you that it can defeat relatively easily targets like the Panther's LFP.

About that picture: the original photo doesn't indicate from what "distance" those shot were taken, we have only the "artistic interpretation" of facts from the author, Yuri Pasholok, who's word I wouldn't trust farther than I can spit.

OK, I'll buy that. You obviously looked closely at the US graph of the Russian 122mm BR-471B projectile.

[Yoozername]

A somewhat famous photo of a Kursk Panther being fired upon by a 88mmL71

pant_hit_88.jpg

[Mobius]

A somewhat famous photo of a Kursk Panther being fired upon by a 88mmL71

pant_hit_88.jpg

That's fair as the only rounds that penetrated the 100mm+100mm front armor of the Ferdinand was the 75mm APCR from a Panther gun.

[Peasant]

A somewhat famous photo of a Kursk Panther being fired upon by a 88mmL71

pant_hit_88.jpg

That's fair as the only rounds that penetrated the 100mm+100mm front armor of the Ferdinand was the 75mm APCR from a Panther gun.

Soviets obtained a penetration on the Ferdinand's driver's plate with the Panther's gun firing it's AP round at 100m:



Two 100mm plates in contact would have about 182mm equivalent thickness. The 7.5cm PzGr.39 rated penetration at 100m(912m/s) is 180mm/0° vs 70-80kgmm^2 plate, so it is very plausible this could happen.

The shots at the casemate front (200mm/20°) from 200m left 170mm and 180mm dents with 10mm bulges at the back.

[Mobius]

Two 100mm plates in contact would have about 182mm equivalent thickness. The 7.5cm PzGr.39 rated penetration at 100m(912m/s) is 180mm/0° vs 70-80kgmm^2 plate, so it is very plausible this could happen.

The 'HeM' was the Soviet way of indicating 'APCR'.

[Peasant]

Two 100mm plates in contact would have about 182mm equivalent thickness. The 7.5cm PzGr.39 rated penetration at 100m(912m/s) is 180mm/0° vs 70-80kgmm^2 plate, so it is very plausible this could happen.

The 'HeM' was the Soviet way of indicating 'APCR'.

Sorry Mobius, but you're wrong on this one. I'm a native russian speaker and I can tell you with 100% certainty that "Нем." stands for "Немецкий" aka "german" and "Бр." is a shorthand for "Бронобойный" aka AP.

[Mobius]

This where I get that idea.

[Peasant]

This where I get that idea.

Yeah, idk where that's from but you should take that source with a grain of salt from now on. Here is what a hit with APCR shell looks like top left corner of the photo, right near the top edge of the plate): a shallow crater and a much smaller hole at it's center. Writing below it is Нем.
Подк. with first two letters out of the picture.

[Mobius]

It's from the same source, Tank archives. So those 85mm shell holes are not from AP? Notice no Нем.

[Yoozername]

I believe this is the source. Note, again, the 8cm side armor (nominal) of the Ferdinand is reported as 85 mm in the tests. The way I read it, all three shots are the same type projectile (whatever they are). the one 'cut-off' hit may be from another test shot or gun

85mm.jpg

[Peasant]

It's from the same source, Tank archives. So those 85mm shell holes are not from AP? Notice no Нем.

"85mm Бр." is 85mm AP.

The half-erased writing near the other hole closest to the from the Panther's APCR hit says it's from a german 75mm AP

[Yoozername]

It's from the same source, Tank archives. So those 85mm shell holes are not from AP? Notice no Нем.

I sent you a PM for my source. I am not using Tank Archives.

The one upper left hit sure looks like 'Hem' also. According to the chart I posted, one 85 mm D5-T hit should be on the vertical side armor also. The chart also seems to describe similar sized holes.

[Yoozername]

A somewhat famous photo of a Kursk Panther being fired upon by a 88mmL71

pant_hit_88.jpg

Besides the point of the UHP being 85 mm thick, I also wanted to show that even a 88mmL71 gun is not fully penetrating the armor at 600 meters. I really doubt a 85 mm would do much better. The tungsten round for this gun (85mm) uses a very small bolt btw.

Aiming for the LHP is not only a small target, but the downward descent of the projectile , albeit small, adds angle to the plate. IOW, makes it 'steeper'.

[Stiltzkin]

Well, they are supposed to be historically accurate, so stuff like that always needs to be under consideration. ;D

Video games can be a tool of propaganda too, especially if they are financed by a fascist regime.

[Contender]

Video games can be a tool of propaganda too, especially if they are financed by a fascist regime.

I don't think war thunder's russian game devs are fascist but the russian buffs are pretty ridiculous.-