2nd Panzer Division Zitadelle shootouts from July 6 1943

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Miles Krogfus
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2nd Panzer Division Zitadelle shootouts from July 6 1943

Post by Miles Krogfus » 24 Feb 2021 00:13

Each company of II Abt. Panzer Rgt.3 of the 2nd Panzer Division received some new Panzers on July 4,1943, just before Zitadelle began, so each then was to have 16 Panzer IV 7.5 cm long, 4 Panzer III 7.5 cm short and 3 Panzer III 5 cm long. Attachment page 4 shows changes made from attachment page 3 to the crew organization of the 8th Panzer Kompanie.
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Miles Krogfus
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Re: 2nd Panzer Division Zitadelle shootouts from July 6 1943

Post by Miles Krogfus » 24 Feb 2021 00:58

From July 6th through July 10th 8 Panzer IV were lost and 1 Pz.III 7.5 cm. to T34's, 2 Pz.III long, 1 Pz, III Befl. and 1 Pz.III 7.5 cm lost to 7.62 cm guns, also 1 Pz III long to a 12.2 and 1 Pz.III long to a 15.2 cm gun. 2 Panzer IV's were lost to 7.62 cm artillery, 2 to 12.2 cm guns and 1 to a 15.2 cm gun. The attachments show the number of Russian men, tanks and guns lost. The two maps are in Das Deutsche Reich und der Zweite Weltkrieg, Band 8 published in 2007.
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Last edited by Miles Krogfus on 24 Feb 2021 18:36, edited 1 time in total.

Miles Krogfus
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Re: 2nd Panzer Division Zitadelle shootouts from July 6 1943

Post by Miles Krogfus » 24 Feb 2021 01:13

Kriegstagebuch II/Panzer Regiment 3 text and ammunition data:
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Re: 2nd Panzer Division Zitadelle shootouts from July 6 1943

Post by Miles Krogfus » 24 Feb 2021 01:31

Two photos of the II Regiment's leading ace Josef Czerny and his tank #822. The one taken in May 1943 shows the Panzer before it received its Zitadelle skirting. Czerny is the third from the left, his gunner Werner Ahrens fourth from the left. The third page shows the emblem of Vienna, the Division's home in white black and red on my copy obtained from the ECPA: ORT 506L03 406964 and a photo showing Panzer #844 of Uffz. Heinz Witthislm second from the right, gunner Ogefr. Hans Uhlig far right.
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Miles Krogfus
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Re: 2nd Panzer Division Zitadelle shootouts from July 6 1943

Post by Miles Krogfus » 16 Mar 2021 19:42

Attachments:
Page 1 has July 1,1943 data that includes the number of divisional Pak and Sfl. artillery.
Page 2 is the May 5,1943 order to paint in white the new Zitadelle divisional sign including Panzers 250 mm high, Krader 125 mm.
Page 3 illustrations of the trident sign.
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Jan-Hendrik
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Re: 2nd Panzer Division Zitadelle shootouts from July 6 1943

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 17 Mar 2021 08:22

Thank you!!

Jan-Hendrik

Yoozername
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Re: 2nd Panzer Division Zitadelle shootouts from July 6 1943

Post by Yoozername » 17 Mar 2021 18:17

As always, Great Stuff!

I really like to see the ammunition data. But I think there is a small error in the report. The first three ammunition types are for KWK 40 meaning Panzer IV. The first is the HL/B ammunition, and correct, but the second is regular PzGr 39 and should not have 'HL/B' after it, but rather 'KWK 40'.

I put lines between the 3 weapon groups. Top is KWK 40, middle is the short L24 weapon on early Panzer IV and late Panzer III, and bottom is long Panzer III. Given the number of panzer IV longs, PzGr 39 seems to be a little low. HL/B being the 'preferred' ammunition (well, you go to War with what you got).

Also of note is the amount of PzGr 40 for the 5,0 cm weapon. And lack of any for the KWK 40.
AMMO.jpg
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Yoozername
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Re: 2nd Panzer Division Zitadelle shootouts from July 6 1943

Post by Yoozername » 17 Mar 2021 18:53

Is this ammunition for just one Battalion (II)? And the three categories are 'on hand' (in AFV), 'Ammo Trucks', and 'On the way'? Thanks.

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Re: 2nd Panzer Division Zitadelle shootouts from July 6 1943

Post by Miles Krogfus » 17 Mar 2021 20:18

The ammunition is for the Panzer Abt. except for the "Schwere Waffen" of the division given in attachment page 1 of above post #5. Verschuss is fired ammo, Zufuhr is ammo on hand at units, Bestand is the available ammo supply not yet distributed to the Panzer Abt. and the division's artillery units.

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Re: 2nd Panzer Division Zitadelle shootouts from July 6 1943

Post by Yoozername » 17 Mar 2021 22:20

This data shows that 7,5 cm PzGr 39 for the Panzer IVL was a 'rare' round as far as this Division at this time. Perhaps no more than 15 rounds available for each one counting all rounds available. The majority round is the HL/B.

There is just one panzer battalion in the Regt. (the other off training on Panthers), so the AFV numbers above would share this ammunition.

I am surprised that the 7,5 cm L24 ammunition is lacking as far as high explosive. I would think they would be tasked with throwing HE and Smoke rounds.

The 5,0 cm ammunition seems to be in good overall supply given the small numbers in the battalion.

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Re: 2nd Panzer Division Zitadelle shootouts from July 6 1943

Post by Yoozername » 20 Mar 2021 18:08

This shows some more detail
1943.jpg
The Rgmt had the following Tanks
43bn.jpg
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Tanker Mike
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Re: 2nd Panzer Division Zitadelle shootouts from July 6 1943

Post by Tanker Mike » 31 Mar 2021 15:01

Miles Krogfus & Yoozername

What is the source for all of these documents? For example, the doc showing the Trident dimensions is something I've never seen before!

Mike
"It is well that war is so terrible, or we would grow too fond of it."
— General Robert E. Lee

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