please help indentify the Panzer III

[Zbynek]

Hi,
I have recently bought a Polish book on Stalingrad. I am in doubt of credibility of one colour plate.
It says it is a panzer III J from 24th panzer division but its probably even not Panzer IIIJ. I also tought there were only panzer IIIJ lang and kurtz in 24th at Stalingrd. And the arrow insignia is weird, too. it doesn't look like 24th panzer insignia. What do you think?

[arminfreitag]

Hi Zbynek,
I do not believe that this Panzer belongs to 24th Pzdiv.
I never saw an arrow like this with 24th Pzdiv's vehicles.
The arrow looks a bit similar to the sign of the 23th Pzdiv. but
is lacking the bar at the bottom of the arrow.
The pictured tank is an Ausf L. Ausf J has the short 5 cm Kwk L/42.
The L/60 versions were renamed Ausf L.

Best regards
Armin

[Zbynek]

Thank you for reply. This is what I tought. The confusing thing is a date. November 1942, late in the fighting for the city, maybe even after the Soviet counterofensive. I was thinking maybe it is a tank from some Kampfgruppe that joined the 24th in November 1942? But this arrow doesn't tell me a thing. I have been looking for any information on this arrow symbol but no clue. Probably mistake in the book

[Zbynek]

The plot thickens I have found another picture of Panzer III from 24th panzer division. It has the same arrow symbol on the back of the tank. Does anyone know what this symbol could possibly mean? Insignia of battalion, company?

[arminfreitag]

Hi Zbynek
I had a look at my folder with Pz III Ausf L early and have to admit that I found some pictures
with the arrow symbol. I think most pictures you cannot see this arrow due to dust.
I do not know what kind of symbol it is but it cannot be a company symbol.
Maybe somebody more knowledgeable can help us clear this up.

Regards
Armin

[Zbynek]

Thank you these are some great pictures! But please look at the last of your pictures. The tank in the foregrount has the same vehicel number as the one of the plate I initially posted So this is indeed a tank from 24th panzer division. But is it an L variant with vorpanzer as on my picture?

Great pictures btw. From what book are they?

[arminfreitag]

Hi Zbynek,
I do not know from which books these pictures are. I'm collecting photos
from the internet since more than 20 years and most of them, maybe 80%,
are from ebay.
As Pzrgt 24 was established in the winter 41/42 I assume that the Pz III
they got were new production Ausf J and early Ausf L (formerly Ausf J L/60).
So I think the tanks did not have Vorpanzer. But that is only my thinking as I do not
know when the panzers were delivered. Of course it could be possible that they got
also panzers with Vorpanzer. If they got such vehicles the possibility is very high that
the panzers had only the frame in front of the turret.
I will try to find some more pictures but it may take some time.

Best regards
Armin

[Алексей]

No photo of Pz.III tanks with "Vorpanzer" of the 24th Pz.div. in the summer-autumn of 1942 did not find:

24 Pz.Div.115.jpg (71.62 KiB) Viewed 2214 times

[Zbynek]

Thanks guys for help. I think we can come to conclusion that the artist made a mistake while making a plate in my book. The tank 1011 really existed in 24th panzer division but it was probably Panzer III J without vorpanzer.

I am still curious what this arrow symbol meant.

[steelers708]

I'm reliably informed by the author Jason D. Mark that the 'arrow' is the official unit emblem allocated to the 24.Pz Division by the OKH, the 'Leaping Horseman' emblem was unofficial but became official over time due to it's prevalence.

[arminfreitag]

Hi steelers708,
thank you for the interesting information.
@Zbynek
As promised here some more pictures. Among them a Pz II with just the arrow symbol.

Regards
Armin

[arminfreitag]

And some more Pz III.

[arminfreitag]

And also some Pz IV with and without arrow symbol.

[Zbynek]

@steelers708
Thank you so much for this information. Its so nice to get know new details.

@arminfreitag
these are some great pictures. No vorpanzer spotted

[Алексей]

The plot thickens I have found another picture of Panzer III from 24th panzer division. It has the same arrow symbol on the back of the tank. Does anyone know what this symbol could possibly mean? Insignia of battalion, company?