21 st Panzer, Normandy

Discussions on the vehicles used by the Axis forces. Hosted by Christian Ankerstjerne
Richard Anderson
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Re: 21 st Panzer, Normandy

Post by Richard Anderson » 04 Apr 2021 22:45

Christian Ankerstjerne wrote:
04 Apr 2021 22:12
Richard and spannerman, at the risk of coming off as intellectually snobbish, his name is Alexey (or some variant thereof, depending on preferred translitteration), not Anekcen.
:lol:
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

Brady
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Re: 21 st Panzer, Normandy

Post by Brady » 05 Apr 2021 04:13

And there was P III N listed, or did I read that wrong ?

Richard Anderson
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Re: 21 st Panzer, Normandy

Post by Richard Anderson » 05 Apr 2021 04:39

Brady wrote:
05 Apr 2021 04:13
And there was P III N listed, or did I read that wrong ?
Yes, there were also some with 179. Res.-Panzer and some with Pz.-Abtl. (Fkl.) 301.
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

Brady
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Re: 21 st Panzer, Normandy

Post by Brady » 05 Apr 2021 05:42

(Fkl.) = ?

And, thanks.

Richard Anderson
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Re: 21 st Panzer, Normandy

Post by Richard Anderson » 05 Apr 2021 06:00

Brady wrote:
05 Apr 2021 05:42
(Fkl.) = ?

And, thanks.
Funklenk = Radio Controlled. The battalion was a headquarters organization with four companies asssigned to it. They used various AFV as control vehicles for the Borgward remote-controlled demolition vehicle.
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

Brady
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Re: 21 st Panzer, Normandy

Post by Brady » 05 Apr 2021 14:02

Oh that’s definitely interesting, so they can adapt basically anything As a control vehicle?

Richard Anderson
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Re: 21 st Panzer, Normandy

Post by Richard Anderson » 05 Apr 2021 15:19

Brady wrote:
05 Apr 2021 14:02
Oh that’s definitely interesting, so they can adapt basically anything As a control vehicle?
Usually it was a StuG or SPW. I suspect they used the Pz-III (7.5cm) as battalion headquarters command vehicles.
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

Brady
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Re: 21 st Panzer, Normandy

Post by Brady » 05 Apr 2021 17:32

They were quiet rare by the Time of Normandy the P III N as I understand it ?

In general I mean.

Any evidence of there use in OMG or the Bulge ?

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Re: 21 st Panzer, Normandy

Post by Chris T G » 05 Apr 2021 23:20

Greetings. I'm a wargamer for my sins and 21st Pzr in Normandy's my next project. Like most modellers, I try to get things as accurate as possible.
The articles, orders of battle and lists I've read indicate that PanzerRegiment 22 had 4 Panzer III tanks on its books.
These are variously described as both k ( Kurz? ) and l ( Lange?) or sometimes as Ausf L or M for reconnaissance and a Befl Pz, which I understand in this case would be the variant with a dummy gun in place of the main armament.
The Panzer IV (k) are usually shown as Ausf B or C.
The information here is great and I'd be grateful if somebody can assist or point me in the right direction. Thanks.

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Re: 21 st Panzer, Normandy

Post by Richard Anderson » 06 Apr 2021 04:23

Chris T G wrote:
05 Apr 2021 23:20
Greetings. I'm a wargamer for my sins and 21st Pzr in Normandy's my next project. Like most modellers, I try to get things as accurate as possible.
The articles, orders of battle and lists I've read indicate that PanzerRegiment 22 had 4 Panzer III tanks on its books.
These are variously described as both k ( Kurz? ) and l ( Lange?) or sometimes as Ausf L or M for reconnaissance and a Befl Pz, which I understand in this case would be the variant with a dummy gun in place of the main armament.
The Panzer IV (k) are usually shown as Ausf B or C.
The information here is great and I'd be grateful if somebody can assist or point me in the right direction. Thanks.
Okay, let's try to go through this again.

Pz.-Regt. 22
Gefechtsstand – Aubigny
Kdr: Oberst Hermann von Oppeln-Bronikowski
Stabs-Kp. (three Pz.-III (7.5cm), five Pz.-IV (lg), one Befl.Pz.-III)
Flak-Pz.-Kp (twelve Flak-Pz.-38)
I./Pz.Regt. 22
Gefechtsstand – Jort
Kdr: Major Wilhelm von Gottberg
Stabs-Kp. (one Pz.-III (7.5cm), five Pz.-IV (lg), one Befl.Pz.-III)
1.-4. Kp. (17 Pz.-IV (lg) each)
II./Pz.Regt. 22
Gefechtsstand – Fresné-la-Mère
Kdr: Major Martin Vierzig
Stabs-Kp. (five Pz.-IV (lg), three Befhl.Pz.-S35 (f) (Somua))
5. Kp. (five Pz.-IV (lg), nine Pz.-S35 (f) (Somua)
6. Kp. (five Pz.-IV (lg), thirteen Pz.-S35 (f) (Somua), two Pz.-H38 (f) (Hotchkiss))
7. Kp. (five Pz.-IV (lg), thirteen Pz.-S35 (f) (Somua))
8. Kp. (six Pz.-IV (kz))

So a total of four Pz.-III (7.5cm), AKA Panzer III Ausf. N, and two Befl.Pz.-III in the regiment.

I used "k" for kurz in an earlier post, which was my error, sorry. They were 7.5cm Panzer III. The Panzer III (kurz) designation was for the 5cm kurz or short gun, the 5cm KwK L/42. The Panzer III (lang) was for the 5cm lang or 5cm KwK L/60.
The Panzer IV (kz) were probably all Ausf D rather than B or C, which would have been even rarer by this time.
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

Alanmccoubrey
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Re: 21 st Panzer, Normandy

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 06 Apr 2021 16:26

Chris T G wrote:
05 Apr 2021 23:20
Greetings. I'm a wargamer for my sins and 21st Pzr in Normandy's my next project. Like most modellers, I try to get things as accurate as possible.
The articles, orders of battle and lists I've read indicate that PanzerRegiment 22 had 4 Panzer III tanks on its books.
These are variously described as both k ( Kurz? ) and l ( Lange?) or sometimes as Ausf L or M for reconnaissance and a Befl Pz, which I understand in this case would be the variant with a dummy gun in place of the main armament.
The Panzer IV (k) are usually shown as Ausf B or C.
The information here is great and I'd be grateful if somebody can assist or point me in the right direction. Thanks.
No, the Panzerbefehlswagen III in 1944 were armed, in this case, with short 50mm guns.
Alan

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Re: 21 st Panzer, Normandy

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 06 Apr 2021 16:27

Brady wrote:
05 Apr 2021 05:42
(Fkl.) = ?

And, thanks.
How come you didn't ask when I used it all that time ago ? :lol:
Alan

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Re: 21 st Panzer, Normandy

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 06 Apr 2021 16:31

Richard Anderson wrote:
06 Apr 2021 04:23
.
The Panzer IV (kz) were probably all Ausf D rather than B or C, which would have been even rarer by this time.
Richard, at least one was a C, well known photographs exist of it doing a "bread run" just before the invasion. The driver's visor carries the name HEIDI.
Alan

Richard Anderson
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Re: 21 st Panzer, Normandy

Post by Richard Anderson » 06 Apr 2021 16:33

Alanmccoubrey wrote:
06 Apr 2021 16:31
Richard Anderson wrote:
06 Apr 2021 04:23
.
The Panzer IV (kz) were probably all Ausf D rather than B or C, which would have been even rarer by this time.
Richard, at least one was a C, well known photographs exist of it doing a "bread run" just before the invasion. The driver's visor carries the name HEIDI.
Yep. I'd forgotten about her.
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

Brady
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Re: 21 st Panzer, Normandy

Post by Brady » 06 Apr 2021 19:07

Alanmccoubrey wrote:
06 Apr 2021 16:27
Brady wrote:
05 Apr 2021 05:42
(Fkl.) = ?

And, thanks.
How come you didn't ask when I used it all that time ago ? :lol:
At the time I had thought it was Flack, for some reason, Like where the Flackpanzer 38's were, and did a double take later on when I re-read it all again, and realized it was not ...

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