21 st Panzer, Normandy

Discussions on the vehicles used by the Axis forces. Hosted by Christian Ankerstjerne
Chris T G
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Re: 21 st Panzer, Normandy

Post by Chris T G » 06 Apr 2021 22:04

Thank you very much for clearing that up for me. And yes it's the images of Heidi that I've seen, complete with the turret stowage bin.
There's also the image of the abandoned B or C dated to August 1944 with the green camo over dark yellow and three pairs of road wheels affixed to the hull side ( there're several models released of this vehicle). This thread from a gaming site has the image I've seen- http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=250501
I am now much the wiser.

Alanmccoubrey
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Re: 21 st Panzer, Normandy

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 08 Apr 2021 18:07

:lol: :lol: :lol:
Alan

Brady
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Re: 21 st Panzer, Normandy

Post by Brady » 14 Nov 2021 21:32

What kind of Recon Vehicles, armored cars, did they have ?

Alanmccoubrey
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Re: 21 st Panzer, Normandy

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 16 Nov 2021 10:22

Brady wrote:
14 Nov 2021 21:32
What kind of Recon Vehicles, armored cars, did they have ?
They had SdKfz 221, 222, 223, 232, 233 and 250/9 in their two "armoured car" companies. The Recce Bn was entirely German in its equipment and was in fact the Lehr Recce Bn which was transferred to 21 PD in late 1943.
Alan

Brady
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Re: 21 st Panzer, Normandy

Post by Brady » 16 Nov 2021 16:57

Alanmccoubrey wrote:
16 Nov 2021 10:22
Brady wrote:
14 Nov 2021 21:32
What kind of Recon Vehicles, armored cars, did they have ?
They had SdKfz 221, 222, 223, 232, 233 and 250/9 in their two "armoured car" companies. The Recce Bn was entirely German in its equipment and was in fact the Lehr Recce Bn which was transferred to 21 PD in late 1943.
Awesome Thanks :)

Alanmccoubrey
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Re: 21 st Panzer, Normandy

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 17 Nov 2021 20:24

I should have given you the numbers I suppose :oops:

1. Kp. 9 x 250/3, 16 x 250/9

2. Kp. 6 x 233, 8 x 231 or 232, 6 x 221MG, 3 x 221 28mm, 7 x 222.

From Perigault's book on 21 PD and yes they did have the 1st Company equipped with the 250/9 rather than the more normal 2nd.
Alan

Richard Anderson
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Re: 21 st Panzer, Normandy

Post by Richard Anderson » 17 Nov 2021 22:43

Alanmccoubrey wrote:
16 Nov 2021 10:22
They had SdKfz 221, 222, 223, 232, 233 and 250/9 in their two "armoured car" companies. The Recce Bn was entirely German in its equipment and was in fact the Lehr Recce Bn which was transferred to 21 PD in late 1943.
There is the possibility of confusion here. Note that the troops drawn on to complete the Pz.-Aufkl.-Abtl. 21, the Pz.-Aufkl.-Lehr-Abtl., was NOT the same as the Pz.-Aufkl.-Lehr-Abtl. that was part of Panzer-Lehr-Division, but was rather the original, prewar Aufkl.-Lehr-Abtl., which was originally part of the Kavallerie-Schule Hannover. It fought in Poland, France, and the East as Heerestruppen until October 1943, when it was used to fill out the Pz.-Aufkl.-Abtl. 21.

Confusing enough for you? :? :lol:

The Pz.-Aufkl.-Lehr-Abtl. was re-established on 21 January 1944 and renamed as the Pz.-Aufkl.-Lehr-Abtl. 130. on 4 April 1944. On 19 March 1944 it participated in Fall MARGARETHE in Hungary and returned with the rest of the division to France between 30 April and 15 May 1944.

As of D-Day the two different units comprised:

Pz.-Aufkl.-Lehr-Abtl. 130. with the rest of the division was in reserve near – Nogent-le-Retrou (east of Alencon).
Stab m. Nachrichten-Zug (two Sd.Kz.250/3, two Sd.Kz.250/10, five Sd.Kfz.251/3, one Sd.Kz.251/8, two Sd.Kz.251/11)
1. Kp. (Pz.Späh.) (26 Sd.Kz.234/2)
2. Kp. (Pz.Späh.) (nine Sd.Kfz.250/5, 16 Sd.Kfz.250/9)
3. Kp. (le.SPW) (22 Sd.Kfz.250/1, two Sd.Kfz.250/2, four Sd.Kfz.250/7)
4. Kp. (le.SPW) (22 Sd.Kfz.250/1, two Sd.Kfz.250/2, four Sd.Kfz.250/7)
5. Kp. (schwere) (1 Sd.Kfz. 250/10, six Sd.Kfz.251/1, two Sd.Kfz.251/3, seven Sd.Kfz.251/7, six Sd.Kfz.251/9, four Sd.Kfz. 251/10
Versorgungs-Kp.

Pz.-Aufkl.-Abtl. 21 with its Gefechtsstand SE of Condé-sur-Noireau was commanded by a Major Waldow and comprised:
1. Kp. (nine le.SPW (Sd.Kfz. 250/3 or /5), 16 le.SPW (Sd.Kfz. 250/9))
2. Kp. (six s.Pz.-Späh.Wg. (Sd.Kfz. 233), eight s.Pz.-Späh.Wg. (Sd.Kfz. 231/232), 16 le. Pz.-Späh.Wg. (three Sd.Kfz. 221 (28/41cm), six Sd.Kfz. 221 (le.MG), seven Sd.Kfz. 221 (2cm)
3. Kp. (two le.Pz.-Fk.Wg (Sd.Kfz. 250/3 or /5), 28 le.SPW (Sd.Kfz. 250/1), seven m.SPW (Sd.Kfz. 251/1))
4. Kp. (two le.Pz-.Fk.Wg. (Sd.Kfz. 250/3 or /5), 28 le.SPW (Sd.Kfz. 250/1), seven m.SPW (Sd.Kfz. 251/1))
5. (schwere) Kp. (27 m.SPW (Sd.Kfz. 251/1))
Versorgungs-Kp.
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

Brady
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Re: 21 st Panzer, Normandy

Post by Brady » 18 Nov 2021 00:45

Richard Anderson wrote:
17 Nov 2021 22:43
Alanmccoubrey wrote:
16 Nov 2021 10:22
They had SdKfz 221, 222, 223, 232, 233 and 250/9 in their two "armoured car" companies. The Recce Bn was entirely German in its equipment and was in fact the Lehr Recce Bn which was transferred to 21 PD in late 1943.
There is the possibility of confusion here. Note that the troops drawn on to complete the Pz.-Aufkl.-Abtl. 21, the Pz.-Aufkl.-Lehr-Abtl., was NOT the same as the Pz.-Aufkl.-Lehr-Abtl. that was part of Panzer-Lehr-Division, but was rather the original, prewar Aufkl.-Lehr-Abtl., which was originally part of the Kavallerie-Schule Hannover. It fought in Poland, France, and the East as Heerestruppen until October 1943, when it was used to fill out the Pz.-Aufkl.-Abtl. 21.

Confusing enough for you? :? :lol:

The Pz.-Aufkl.-Lehr-Abtl. was re-established on 21 January 1944 and renamed as the Pz.-Aufkl.-Lehr-Abtl. 130. on 4 April 1944. On 19 March 1944 it participated in Fall MARGARETHE in Hungary and returned with the rest of the division to France between 30 April and 15 May 1944.

As of D-Day the two different units comprised:

Pz.-Aufkl.-Lehr-Abtl. 130. with the rest of the division was in reserve near – Nogent-le-Retrou (east of Alencon).
Stab m. Nachrichten-Zug (two Sd.Kz.250/3, two Sd.Kz.250/10, five Sd.Kfz.251/3, one Sd.Kz.251/8, two Sd.Kz.251/11)
1. Kp. (Pz.Späh.) (26 Sd.Kz.234/2)
2. Kp. (Pz.Späh.) (nine Sd.Kfz.250/5, 16 Sd.Kfz.250/9)
3. Kp. (le.SPW) (22 Sd.Kfz.250/1, two Sd.Kfz.250/2, four Sd.Kfz.250/7)
4. Kp. (le.SPW) (22 Sd.Kfz.250/1, two Sd.Kfz.250/2, four Sd.Kfz.250/7)
5. Kp. (schwere) (1 Sd.Kfz. 250/10, six Sd.Kfz.251/1, two Sd.Kfz.251/3, seven Sd.Kfz.251/7, six Sd.Kfz.251/9, four Sd.Kfz. 251/10
Versorgungs-Kp.

Pz.-Aufkl.-Abtl. 21 with its Gefechtsstand SE of Condé-sur-Noireau was commanded by a Major Waldow and comprised:
1. Kp. (nine le.SPW (Sd.Kfz. 250/3 or /5), 16 le.SPW (Sd.Kfz. 250/9))
2. Kp. (six s.Pz.-Späh.Wg. (Sd.Kfz. 233), eight s.Pz.-Späh.Wg. (Sd.Kfz. 231/232), 16 le. Pz.-Späh.Wg. (three Sd.Kfz. 221 (28/41cm), six Sd.Kfz. 221 (le.MG), seven Sd.Kfz. 221 (2cm)
3. Kp. (two le.Pz.-Fk.Wg (Sd.Kfz. 250/3 or /5), 28 le.SPW (Sd.Kfz. 250/1), seven m.SPW (Sd.Kfz. 251/1))
4. Kp. (two le.Pz-.Fk.Wg. (Sd.Kfz. 250/3 or /5), 28 le.SPW (Sd.Kfz. 250/1), seven m.SPW (Sd.Kfz. 251/1))
5. (schwere) Kp. (27 m.SPW (Sd.Kfz. 251/1))
Versorgungs-Kp.

WoW 26 234/2 in Panzer Lehr, not the 21 st PD ?

Richard Anderson
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Re: 21 st Panzer, Normandy

Post by Richard Anderson » 18 Nov 2021 01:11

Brady wrote:
18 Nov 2021 00:45
WoW 26 234/2 in Panzer Lehr, not the 21 st PD ?
Yes.
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

Alanmccoubrey
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Re: 21 st Panzer, Normandy

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 18 Nov 2021 19:49

Richard, you over simplified the 21st's Heavy Company. It did not have 27 x SdKfz 251/1; 6 of them were 251/9 Stummel, 1 was a 251/10, 2 were 251/16 Flammethrowers and 5 were the towing vehicles for Pak40 (3) and 7,5cm leIG18(2) and while not listed in Perigault at least one of the remainder must have been the company commander's 251/3.
Alan

Richard Anderson
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Re: 21 st Panzer, Normandy

Post by Richard Anderson » 18 Nov 2021 21:10

Alanmccoubrey wrote:
18 Nov 2021 19:49
Richard, you over simplified the 21st's Heavy Company. It did not have 27 x SdKfz 251/1; 6 of them were 251/9 Stummel, 1 was a 251/10, 2 were 251/16 Flammethrowers and 5 were the towing vehicles for Pak40 (3) and 7,5cm leIG18(2) and while not listed in Perigault at least one of the remainder must have been the company commander's 251/3.
You are correct Alan. The listing for 5. Kp was originally a placeholder and I never remembered to update it. Thanks for the reminder! :thumbsup:
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

Sean Oliver
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Re: 21 st Panzer, Normandy

Post by Sean Oliver » 06 Jan 2022 04:10

Regarding Feuchtinger's Funnies and the TOE of Becker's Stug.Abt.200:

In Ian Dalgleish's Goodwood Over the Battle book, there's a reproduction of parts of a map belonging to Becker and used during the battle, which indicated at least some of his batteries were split into 2 sections of 3 x 7,5 ea, forward, plus a third section of 4 x 10,5 cm a distance to the rear providing fire support, i.e. 6 x 7,5 and 4 x 10,5, plus an arty obsv vehicle of unknown type.
Furthermore, I have seen another chart or document somewhere with 6x75 Pak and 4x105 howz indicated. I have no explanation for this reversal of Pak-vs-Haubz numbers per battery.

spannermann
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Re: 21 st Panzer, Normandy

Post by spannermann » 06 Jan 2022 20:55

Hi,
21st Pz and in particular its StuG Abt 200 is always a mess to understand, I also have Ian's book but would regard the Becker maps as his, but very likely post war memories.

The OOB documents written at the time, the Gliederung, are different, in that the four available all show four batteries not five as is known did exist, certainly in Op Goodwood, there were five.

Gliederung 1-5-44 shows four batteries with 24 Howitzers and 14 Paks.
Gliederung 1-6-44 shows four batteries with 24 Howitzers and 17 Paks.
Gliederung 1-7-44 shows four batteries with 24 Howitzers and 12 Paks.
Gliederung 1-8-44 shows four batteries with 19 Howitzers and 8 Paks, obviously this is after Goodwood.

So, make of it what you will, but it is also possible that Becker's maps are correct in that gun vehicles were moved around between batteries to suit situations, so official numbers per battery were not be the same when in action.

cheers

Alanmccoubrey
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Re: 21 st Panzer, Normandy

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 07 Jan 2022 09:04

And let's not forget that there are photographs of a Hotchkiss 105mm SP clearly marked as belonging to the battalion's 5th Battery !
Alan

yantaylor
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Re: 21 st Panzer, Normandy

Post by yantaylor » 08 Jan 2022 21:06

Alan.
How are you.
So did the 5. Kompanie have 12 x Sd.Kfz 251/1s in two Infantry Platoons ? maybe commanded by the single 251/10?

Ian

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