For years after World War II "Sgt Rock" world War II comics and a lot of Movies showed GI having to battle King/Tiger tanks..
Just how many appeared on western vs eastern Fronts?
Is it true that their powerful armament was comprised by the tank being too heavy and too slow?
King Tiger tanks query
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CheeseMerchant
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Re: King Tiger tanks query
What compromised the Tiger II was not its weight, reliability or mobility. it was its availability. with only 489 vehicles produced in total. The influence the Tiger II could project on the frontline was very limited. which made it a strategic waste of resources, despite it being tactically a very good weapon.
Alot of the potrayal of the German big cats in American war movies are overexeggerated. movies make it seem that the allies were fighting against Tigers every time. while in reality the amount of Tigers on the western front was extremely limited and never amounted to more then a dozen being available at any given time.
Meanwhile on the eastern front Tiger units, often put into heavy tank battalions used as quck reaction firemen units to fill gaps and stop Russian breakthroughs. were alot more common as they were needed more on that front seeing the overwhelming odds the Germans were facing from 1943 onwards.
The Tiger II was very unreliable in its initial production run. but both Jentz and Zaloga stated that the reliability of Tiger II units increased the more vehicles were produced and problems were ironed out. leading to overall reliability figures being close to equal to that of the Panzer IV at the end of the war. This claim can be found in the 1993 book from Jentz Titled "King Tiger heavy tank 1942-1945" Zaloga makes the same claim in his book "Pershing vs. Tiger"
About mobility. The Tiger II was very mobile for its weight class. Having the same cross country mobility to that of the Sherman thanks to very good ground pressure. Albeit having a slightly slower top speed on roads because of the engine limitations. this gave well maintained Tiger units the same battlefield mobility as Shermans. however the ability to keep them well maintained became less and less the longer the war went on. late war German Tiger units suffered from a severe lack of spare sparts which rendered a big chunk of vehicles not operational. not because the Design of the Tiger II was inherently flawed like many seem to think. but because the logistical system to keep them running was collapsing more and more as the war went on.
Alot of the potrayal of the German big cats in American war movies are overexeggerated. movies make it seem that the allies were fighting against Tigers every time. while in reality the amount of Tigers on the western front was extremely limited and never amounted to more then a dozen being available at any given time.
Meanwhile on the eastern front Tiger units, often put into heavy tank battalions used as quck reaction firemen units to fill gaps and stop Russian breakthroughs. were alot more common as they were needed more on that front seeing the overwhelming odds the Germans were facing from 1943 onwards.
The Tiger II was very unreliable in its initial production run. but both Jentz and Zaloga stated that the reliability of Tiger II units increased the more vehicles were produced and problems were ironed out. leading to overall reliability figures being close to equal to that of the Panzer IV at the end of the war. This claim can be found in the 1993 book from Jentz Titled "King Tiger heavy tank 1942-1945" Zaloga makes the same claim in his book "Pershing vs. Tiger"
About mobility. The Tiger II was very mobile for its weight class. Having the same cross country mobility to that of the Sherman thanks to very good ground pressure. Albeit having a slightly slower top speed on roads because of the engine limitations. this gave well maintained Tiger units the same battlefield mobility as Shermans. however the ability to keep them well maintained became less and less the longer the war went on. late war German Tiger units suffered from a severe lack of spare sparts which rendered a big chunk of vehicles not operational. not because the Design of the Tiger II was inherently flawed like many seem to think. but because the logistical system to keep them running was collapsing more and more as the war went on.
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spannermann
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Re: King Tiger tanks query
As Cheesemerchant has described the engineering situation with the Tiger II, here is some combat information about the first contact with the Tiger II by the US Army.
Just who fought against and destroyed the German panzers in any particular battle is usually a contentious subject, with all participants claiming to be the key destroyers of German armour. This very much applies to the German Tiger tanks, with every arm-of-service making claims to have “got a Tiger”, and all kinds of German vehicles, panzers or otherwise being misidentified as Tigers and therefore making the claims for destruction far outweigh the actual numbers of Tiger tanks available on any particular frontline. The battle of Normandy is no exception.
With the Battle of Normandy, two points need to be clarified. Firstly, what geographical area is considered to be the Normandy Battle area and secondly what German Tiger units qualify to be in that battle area. Geographically, and for this article, the Normandy Battlefield is taken as being from the landing beaches in the north to the River Loire in the south, and from Brittany (inclusive) in the west to the Belgium border in the north east, Paris included. Eastern France is not included. Therefore the designated battle area is far larger than the specific Department of Normandie but it is the area that was fought over by all the original German units that were sent to the Normandy.
The Tiger tank units found within this Normandy Battle catchment area were;-
Two Waffen-SS heavy tank battalions, sSS Pz Abt 101 and 102, each with 45 Tiger I. In July 44 the personnel of the1st Kp of sSS Pz Abt 101 were withdrawn to Sennelager in Germany and re-equipped with 14 Tiger II, returning to the Normandy battle “catchment area” in early September 44.
A third Tiger battalion in Normandy was an Army unit, sPz Abt 503, with 33 Tiger I and 12 Tiger II. In July 44 the personnel of the 3rd Kp were also withdrawn to Mailly-le-Camp, east of Paris and re-equipped with 14 Tiger II, returning to the Normandy battle “catchment area” during early September 44.
The fourth unit containing Tigers was the sPz Kompanie 316 (fkl), with five Tiger II, it was loosely attached to the130th Pz Lehr Panzer division in June 44, but independent by July 44.
This gives a total of 123 Tiger I and 45 Tiger II with no known further replacements issued to these units, this figure includes the two re-equipments mentioned. Therefore the total number of Tigers employed for the Normandy Battle was168.
Consequently who did fight the Tigers in Normandy? the answer to this is relatively simple, mainly the British, Canadian and Polish ground forces, the American ground forces hardly saw any and it was late in the campaign when they did. How many Tigers did the US Army meet in Normandy, in spite of film and television showing US troops fighting Tiger I’s immediately after D-Day 6th June 44, mid-August 1944 was the earliest American Army Tiger contact currently known, unless other data comes to light to prove otherwise. This contact was with the Tiger II’s of sPz Kp 316 (fkl).
sPz Kp 316’s finally abandoned and self-demolished all five Tiger II’s in and around the town of Chateaudun in southern Normandy, 17th - 18th August 44. All were captured by the US Army but definitely not knocked out by the US Army.
The other three Tiger units, sSSPz Abt 101, 102 and sPz 503 arrived in Normandy about 12th June, 1st July and 6th July respectively on the British /Canadian Army front. With the brief exception of 2nd Kompanie of sSS Pz Abt 102 which fought near Vire, a town in the US Army sector, between the 3-8th August only, even so, 2nd Kp was still within the British Army boundaries and definitely was fighting against British troops attacking southwards as part of Operation Bluecoat. Thereafter 2nd Kp returned to the Falaise area of Normandy.
In the mid to later part of August the precise location of these three Tiger Abt’s becomes more vague, the Falaise pocket is forming and all German units are withdrawing east and getting very mixed up, although theoretically the remains of all Tiger units were still facing north and west (British, Canadians and Poles), there is a claim that a Tiger could have engaged the US Army on the southern edge of the pocket, an sSS PzAbt 102 Tiger was reportedly found near Alencon, unlikely, as this location is a good way south of the pocket, but again it was more likely to have been abandoned rather that fought over. Also to be noted by this time that the amount of Tigers in existence would be no more than 30 - 35 of the original 140 (three battalions with 45 each plus five in the Pz Kp 316). The two re-equipped Tiger II companies are not counted at this time as they had not yet returned to the front-line.
Between the Falaise pocket and the River Seine, again it is possible that the US Army met some Tigers in ones and twos but no more, possibly in the Mantes area, but again there is no evidence so far, apart from possible Alencon..
North of the River Seine between the river, the town of Beauvais and the Belgium border, the US Army definitely fought against Tiger tanks, these consisted of about six Tiger I’s left over from the three original Tiger Abteilungs, these had managed to re-cross the R.Seine, but also there were now the two newly re-equipped Tiger II Kompanies in this same area.
Therefore parts of these two units fought the US Army in this area and back towards the Belgium border, losing most of their Tigers in the process. Shortly afterwards the battle of Normandy is considered to be over.
As can be seen the US Army fought only a few Tiger and that was very late on in the Normandy campaign, however photographic evidence is what matters, and maybe there are photos in existence that prove otherwise. Verbal and written accounts are of no use in this situation, as mentioned already, many German tanks got called “a Tiger” at some point or other, or real Tigers got called something else.
As for Tigers in North Africa, Sicily, Italy and Northern Europe after October 1944, others will have to supply the information.
A point of interest and a very rough calculation, only about a quarter of all German equipment and vehicles fought against the Western Allies, the other three quarters was used in the east.
Just who fought against and destroyed the German panzers in any particular battle is usually a contentious subject, with all participants claiming to be the key destroyers of German armour. This very much applies to the German Tiger tanks, with every arm-of-service making claims to have “got a Tiger”, and all kinds of German vehicles, panzers or otherwise being misidentified as Tigers and therefore making the claims for destruction far outweigh the actual numbers of Tiger tanks available on any particular frontline. The battle of Normandy is no exception.
With the Battle of Normandy, two points need to be clarified. Firstly, what geographical area is considered to be the Normandy Battle area and secondly what German Tiger units qualify to be in that battle area. Geographically, and for this article, the Normandy Battlefield is taken as being from the landing beaches in the north to the River Loire in the south, and from Brittany (inclusive) in the west to the Belgium border in the north east, Paris included. Eastern France is not included. Therefore the designated battle area is far larger than the specific Department of Normandie but it is the area that was fought over by all the original German units that were sent to the Normandy.
The Tiger tank units found within this Normandy Battle catchment area were;-
Two Waffen-SS heavy tank battalions, sSS Pz Abt 101 and 102, each with 45 Tiger I. In July 44 the personnel of the1st Kp of sSS Pz Abt 101 were withdrawn to Sennelager in Germany and re-equipped with 14 Tiger II, returning to the Normandy battle “catchment area” in early September 44.
A third Tiger battalion in Normandy was an Army unit, sPz Abt 503, with 33 Tiger I and 12 Tiger II. In July 44 the personnel of the 3rd Kp were also withdrawn to Mailly-le-Camp, east of Paris and re-equipped with 14 Tiger II, returning to the Normandy battle “catchment area” during early September 44.
The fourth unit containing Tigers was the sPz Kompanie 316 (fkl), with five Tiger II, it was loosely attached to the130th Pz Lehr Panzer division in June 44, but independent by July 44.
This gives a total of 123 Tiger I and 45 Tiger II with no known further replacements issued to these units, this figure includes the two re-equipments mentioned. Therefore the total number of Tigers employed for the Normandy Battle was168.
Consequently who did fight the Tigers in Normandy? the answer to this is relatively simple, mainly the British, Canadian and Polish ground forces, the American ground forces hardly saw any and it was late in the campaign when they did. How many Tigers did the US Army meet in Normandy, in spite of film and television showing US troops fighting Tiger I’s immediately after D-Day 6th June 44, mid-August 1944 was the earliest American Army Tiger contact currently known, unless other data comes to light to prove otherwise. This contact was with the Tiger II’s of sPz Kp 316 (fkl).
sPz Kp 316’s finally abandoned and self-demolished all five Tiger II’s in and around the town of Chateaudun in southern Normandy, 17th - 18th August 44. All were captured by the US Army but definitely not knocked out by the US Army.
The other three Tiger units, sSSPz Abt 101, 102 and sPz 503 arrived in Normandy about 12th June, 1st July and 6th July respectively on the British /Canadian Army front. With the brief exception of 2nd Kompanie of sSS Pz Abt 102 which fought near Vire, a town in the US Army sector, between the 3-8th August only, even so, 2nd Kp was still within the British Army boundaries and definitely was fighting against British troops attacking southwards as part of Operation Bluecoat. Thereafter 2nd Kp returned to the Falaise area of Normandy.
In the mid to later part of August the precise location of these three Tiger Abt’s becomes more vague, the Falaise pocket is forming and all German units are withdrawing east and getting very mixed up, although theoretically the remains of all Tiger units were still facing north and west (British, Canadians and Poles), there is a claim that a Tiger could have engaged the US Army on the southern edge of the pocket, an sSS PzAbt 102 Tiger was reportedly found near Alencon, unlikely, as this location is a good way south of the pocket, but again it was more likely to have been abandoned rather that fought over. Also to be noted by this time that the amount of Tigers in existence would be no more than 30 - 35 of the original 140 (three battalions with 45 each plus five in the Pz Kp 316). The two re-equipped Tiger II companies are not counted at this time as they had not yet returned to the front-line.
Between the Falaise pocket and the River Seine, again it is possible that the US Army met some Tigers in ones and twos but no more, possibly in the Mantes area, but again there is no evidence so far, apart from possible Alencon..
North of the River Seine between the river, the town of Beauvais and the Belgium border, the US Army definitely fought against Tiger tanks, these consisted of about six Tiger I’s left over from the three original Tiger Abteilungs, these had managed to re-cross the R.Seine, but also there were now the two newly re-equipped Tiger II Kompanies in this same area.
Therefore parts of these two units fought the US Army in this area and back towards the Belgium border, losing most of their Tigers in the process. Shortly afterwards the battle of Normandy is considered to be over.
As can be seen the US Army fought only a few Tiger and that was very late on in the Normandy campaign, however photographic evidence is what matters, and maybe there are photos in existence that prove otherwise. Verbal and written accounts are of no use in this situation, as mentioned already, many German tanks got called “a Tiger” at some point or other, or real Tigers got called something else.
As for Tigers in North Africa, Sicily, Italy and Northern Europe after October 1944, others will have to supply the information.
A point of interest and a very rough calculation, only about a quarter of all German equipment and vehicles fought against the Western Allies, the other three quarters was used in the east.
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Yoozername
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Re: King Tiger tanks query
The 506 Tiger Bn fought on the Western Front. Market Garden, Aachen, and Bulge being some battles they fought. A report on Feb 1, 45 showed they only had 26 of its initial 59 Tiger II. And all were under repair. A major cause of damage was Tigers towing Tigers resulting in damage. By March 5th they had just 3 runners out of 15.
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spannermann
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Re: King Tiger tanks query
Hi,
s506 had 59 Tiger but its was 45 Tiger II and 14 Tiger I.
Also in the west was the s507 that had 21 Tiger II and fought in the Hartz Mountains area of NW Germany in 1945.
There were a few other Tigers in ones and twos in scratch units mainly made up from training school vehicles that became the front line as the Allies approached their camps in 1945.
cheers PAUL
s506 had 59 Tiger but its was 45 Tiger II and 14 Tiger I.
Also in the west was the s507 that had 21 Tiger II and fought in the Hartz Mountains area of NW Germany in 1945.
There were a few other Tigers in ones and twos in scratch units mainly made up from training school vehicles that became the front line as the Allies approached their camps in 1945.
cheers PAUL
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Richard Anderson
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Re: King Tiger tanks query
At least one "Tiger" (almost certainly a Tiger I) was reliably recorded as battlefield salvage by FUSA in June 1944. I have never been able to track down the precise circumstances, but I suspect it was not as the result of an encounter between American and German units, but was probably broken down or damaged in the British sector and found by the Americans after a change in boundary.
The first confirmed encounter by American forces with the Tiger I was in Tunisia at Sidi bou Zid on 14 February 1943.
The first confirmed encounter by American forces with the Tiger I was in Tunisia at Sidi bou Zid on 14 February 1943.
Richard C. Anderson Jr.
American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall
Hitler's Last Gamble
Artillery Hell
American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
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Michael Kenny
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Re: King Tiger tanks query
It has to be this oneRichard Anderson wrote: ↑27 Jun 2021, 20:49At least one "Tiger" (almost certainly a Tiger I) was reliably recorded as battlefield salvage by FUSA in June 1944. I have never been able to track down the precise circumstances, but I suspect it was not as the result of an encounter between American and German units, but was probably broken down or damaged in the British sector and found by the Americans after a change in boundary.
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Richard Anderson
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Re: King Tiger tanks query
Any ID other than the area?
Richard C. Anderson Jr.
American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall
Hitler's Last Gamble
Artillery Hell
American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall
Hitler's Last Gamble
Artillery Hell
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Michael Kenny
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Re: King Tiger tanks query
The large photo surfaced on a WW2 US Paratrooper's site about about 20 years ago with the info ' a photo taken by a US Soldier near Villers Bocage in July 1944.' and that is all that is known for certain. The inset is John Erbes sitting on a wreck so it must have some US connection. It is possible the Erbes pic may not be the same Tiger as the larger photo .
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ThatZenoGuy
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Re: King Tiger tanks query
The King Tiger is a heavy tank, therefore it being heavy and slow isn't really getting in the way of its intended role. That is, to be an invincible rolling bunker that destroys anything that needs destroying.Linkagain wrote: ↑06 Jun 2021, 22:38For years after World War II "Sgt Rock" world War II comics and a lot of Movies showed GI having to battle King/Tiger tanks..
Just how many appeared on western vs eastern Fronts?
Is it true that their powerful armament was comprised by the tank being too heavy and too slow?
The King Tiger was significantly more mobile than some other heavy tanks however, such as the Churchill. She wasn't exactly the speediest vehicle but she could get moving if she needed to.
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Richard Anderson
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Re: King Tiger tanks query
Thanks Michael. Oddly no one of that name appears in Fold3. Are you sure of the spelling or do you know anything more about him?Michael Kenny wrote: ↑28 Jun 2021, 05:19The large photo surfaced on a WW2 US Paratrooper's site about about 20 years ago with the info ' a photo taken by a US Soldier near Villers Bocage in July 1944.' and that is all that is known for certain. The inset is John Erbes sitting on a wreck so it must have some US connection. It is possible the Erbes pic may not be the same Tiger as the larger photo .
Richard C. Anderson Jr.
American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall
Hitler's Last Gamble
Artillery Hell
American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall
Hitler's Last Gamble
Artillery Hell
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Michael Kenny
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Re: King Tiger tanks query
Captain John Erbes, a doctor in 2nd AD.Richard Anderson wrote: ↑28 Jun 2021, 16:32
Thanks Michael. Oddly no one of that name appears in Fold3. Are you sure of the spelling or do you know anything more about him?
viewtopic.php?f=47&t=240938&p=2195163&h ... s#p2195163
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Richard Anderson
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Re: King Tiger tanks query
Oh, that's right I had forgotten. It makes me wonder how he ended up near Villers-Bocage? None of the division was anywhere near there in June or later? So almost certainly the photo of him is not the original location of the wreck.Michael Kenny wrote: ↑28 Jun 2021, 17:35Captain John Erbes, a doctor in 2nd AD.
viewtopic.php?f=47&t=240938&p=2195163&h ... s#p2195163
Richard C. Anderson Jr.
American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall
Hitler's Last Gamble
Artillery Hell
American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall
Hitler's Last Gamble
Artillery Hell
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spannermann
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Re: King Tiger tanks query
He obviously like posing with panzers.
cheers PAUL
cheers PAUL
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Michael Kenny
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Re: King Tiger tanks query
The 'Villers Bocage' term just came with the original photo and means very little. This Tiger ( without Erbes) was somewhere west of Villers which is the direction of the US sector. It might have been a US soldier in the British sector or it might have strayed into the US sector. There is no mention of it in any SS 101 accounts.