King Tiger tanks query

[Michael Kenny]

So almost certainly the photo of him is not the original location of the wreck.

I am not convinced they are the same Tiger .Concentrate on the big photo as the most likely 'US Sector' Tiger.

[Richard Anderson]

He obviously like posing with panzers.

cheers PAUL
pictures_0009.jpg

I suspect all of the photos were taken at more or less the same time, probably at a salvage collection point near Isigny, which is where the first divisional CP was after landing on 25 June and it remained there until 9 July. I'll try to dig into the 67th AR records and see if anything comes up.

[spannermann]

Hi, Richard,

The knocked out Panther is not at a collection site but had been set up for firing trials, there are many photos of it undamaged to start with, and there are both US and British Army soldiers on top of it before being shot at.

Its a Panther from the 2nd Pz Div #321 and I am not sure the US Army was up against them at the time.

cheers PAUL

[Michael Kenny]

Its a Panther from the 2nd Pz Div #321 and I am not sure the US Army was up against them at the time.

This Panther first appears in The Sale Collection and was photographed in a field just north of Mouen in early July

Then it was transported to the US Sector for the firing trials at Balleroy .

[Richard Anderson]

Hi, Richard,

The knocked out Panther is not at a collection site but had been set up for firing trials, there are many photos of it undamaged to start with, and there are both US and British Army soldiers on top of it before being shot at.

Its a Panther from the 2nd Pz Div #321 and I am not sure the US Army was up against them at the time.

cheers PAUL

321 2pzdivnormandy.JPG

Sorry I wasn't clear. In August Isigny was the location of a test shoot. In June it was the location of an Ordnance salvage collection point. I don't know if it was still there in August or not, but I suspect it was.

[Linkagain]

Knocked out Tigers photograph links
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Cate ... ut_Tiger_I
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Cate ... ed_Tiger_I
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... avelot.jpg
https://www.bing.com/images/search?view ... ajaxserp=0
https://www.bing.com/images/search?view ... ajaxserp=0


I wonder if in the comic books versain of World war II if the Tiger I was called King tiger II/ {Sorry couldnt resist that pun]
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:M26_Killer.jpg

I do know one versain of Sgt Rock...they attack German soldiers arrmed with water cooled spandau machine guns from World War I!

[Sheldrake]

One candidate might be a tank from 102 SS Heavy Tank Battalion which lost a Tiger NE of Vire on 2nd August and may have lost others in the move from that area. The 9th SS also in the Vire area had a strength of 30 serviceable panthers on 1st August but only 7 on the 7th August the day they were ordered to withdraw. The 67th Armored Regiment was part of the US 2nd Armoured Division which was part of the US force which liberated Vire on 7th August. The good doctor may have swanned in the area.

[Richard Anderson]

One candidate might be a tank from 102 SS Heavy Tank Battalion which lost a Tiger NE of Vire on 2nd August and may have lost others in the move from that area. The 9th SS also in the Vire area had a strength of 30 serviceable panthers on 1st August but only 7 on the 7th August the day they were ordered to withdraw. The 67th Armored Regiment was part of the US 2nd Armoured Division which was part of the US force which liberated Vire on 7th August. The good doctor may have swanned in the area.

Yes, that would be a good match possibility for the photo evidence of the doctor with Tiger...but does not account for the FUSA acquisition of a Tiger in June.

[Michael Kenny]

One candidate might be a tank from 102 SS Heavy Tank Battalion which lost a Tiger NE of Vire on 2nd August and may have lost others in the move from that area.

Which most likely is the small photo which (to me) looks post-war.

[Sheldrake]

...but does not account for the FUSA acquisition of a Tiger in June.

Never discount the Catch 22 hypothesis. There may have been some dead tigers in the British sector. (Tim Saunders once put up a case for the Panzer Lehr Division having three and using and losing one near point 103 North of Tilly. If the US Army wanted a dead Tiger they could have bought it from the Brits. US Soldiers had considerable bargaining power in terms of goodies. .

[Michael Kenny]

I believe the Balleroy/Isigny paperwork mentions the lack of a suitable Tiger for testing.

[spannermann]

Hi,
The Tiger I tactical number looks like 232, and very sSS 102 ish..

According to the 2/sSS Pz Abt 102 daily diary, Tiger 232 was lost 14 miles south of Caen on the 12 August 44.

Although both sSS Pz Abt 101 and sPz Abt 503 had Tiger I's numbered 232, neither fought the US Army for most of the Normandy battles, but might have got involved with the US Army around the Falaise Pocket and up to the River Seine, but nothing concrete.

As for the Panther at the Isigny test, its from 2nd Pz Div, as apart from its tactical numbering style being typically Pz Rgt 3, it also has the divisional Trident insignia in white painted of the side of the turret. I believe 2nd Pz Divisions first encounter with the US Army was at Mortain in early August 44.

So maybe Dr Erbes travelled a lot.

cheers PAUL

321 Panther 321 2nd PzdD....... (2) ,.jpg (29.95 KiB) Viewed 598 times

[Richard Anderson]

Which most likely is the small photo which (to me) looks post-war.
Tiger Erbes V.jpg

I never noticed before Michael, you're right, he does appear to be in civvies.

[Richard Anderson]

Never discount the Catch 22 hypothesis. There may have been some dead tigers in the British sector. (Tim Saunders once put up a case for the Panzer Lehr Division having three and using and losing one near point 103 North of Tilly. If the US Army wanted a dead Tiger they could have bought it from the Brits. US Soldiers had considerable bargaining power in terms of goodies. .

Oh, yes, indeed. However, I don't think it was "bought", I rather suspect it was simply found and recovered by American forces, probably after the inter-army boundary shuffles following PERCH. The prime suspect area would be the "Caumont Gap"...if only we could place one of the mysterious Panzer Lehr Tiger I there.

[steelers708]

The fourth unit containing Tigers was the sPz Kompanie 316 (fkl), with five Tiger II, it was loosely attached to the130th Pz Lehr Panzer division in June 44, but independent by July 44.

Pz Lehr was supposed to have it's own organic Fkl Kompanie but this never happenned and so in it's place Pz Kompanie(Fkl) 316 was tactically attached in September 1943. In January 1944 the Kompanie received orders to re-equip with Tiger IIs, which were delivered in early March 1944, at the same time in January Pz Kompanie(Fkl) 316 became the 1.schwere Panzer-Kompanie (Fkl) of the Pz Lehr division. It would stay this way until the 22nd June 1944 when the Panzer Lehr received orders to detach the Fkl Kompanie with the Kompanie being redesignated as the 1./Panzer Abteilung (Fkl) 302. After being detached the Kompanie was sent to Reims to join Panzer Abteilung (Fkl) 302