12th SS Panzer Regiment - Battle of Ardennes composition

[Enekoitz]

Hi,

I would be grateful if someone shared some details about the composition of this Regiment during the Ardennes Battle, in particular, what was the number of the Befehlspanther? I have a photo where Panther no. 154 is described as such but it seems unlikely. Can someone help?

[Алексей]

https://dishmodels.ru/gshow.htm?p=18653

[spannermann]

Hi,
Panzer tactical number 154 was one of three Behfl Panthers in the Stab of the I/SS PzRgt 12 in Normandy. The other two were 153 and 155.

cheers PAUL

[Enekoitz]

Hi,
Panzer tactical number 154 was one of three Behfl Panthers in the Stab of the I/SS PzRgt 12 in Normandy. The other two were 153 and 155.

cheers PAUL

Thank you! Are you sure, though? I belong to an FB Panther's group, the group's expert says it's impossible for the Befehlspanthers to have such numbers. On the other hand, a specialist French magazine does mention no. 154 as one. A puzzle....

[Enekoitz]

https://dishmodels.ru/gshow.htm?p=18653

спасибо товарищ!

[spannermann]

Hi Einekoitz,

It is not impossible, it is not a puzzle, its just numbers, panzer units could paint any sequence of numbers they wanted onto their vehicles, of course there were regulations for numbering, but later in the war, these regulations were relaxed as it was becoming obvious that the enemy was aware of what R, I or II meant, command panzers, and made them a priority target.

From about mid war command panzers started to have all sorts of number sequences applied to hide their true identity.

12 SS was very much into this numbering change.

Other examples, the Stab of SS Pz Regiment 2 used 97, 98 and 99 for its Behfl Pz in Normandy and into Hungary also the Stab of II/SS PzRgt 2 in Normandy used 777, 778, 779 for its Behfl panzers.


cheers PAUL

[Enekoitz]

Hi Einekoitz,

It not impossible, not a puzzle, its just numbers, panzer units could paint any sequence of numbers they wanted onto their vehicles, of course there were regulations for numbering, but later in the war, these regulations were relaxed as it was becoming obvious that the enemy was aware of what R, I or II meant, command panzers, and made them a priority target.

From about mid war command panzers started to have all sorts of number sequences applied to hide their true identity.

12 SS was very much into this numbering change.

Other examples, the Stab of SS Pz Regiment 2 used 97, 98 and 99 for its Behfl Pz in Normandy and into Hungary also the Stab of II/SS PzRgt 2 in Normandy used 777, 778, 779 for its Behfl panzers.


cheers PAUL

Thank you again! These were more or less my suspicions, can I cite you or, if you prefer perfect anonimity, at least use your arguments?

[spannermann]

Hi Einekoitz,
of course use what you like. all the 12 SS Panzer Regiment numbers are in the website quoted by Anekcen in note #2 above
cheers PAUL

[spannermann]

Hello Einekoitz,
Your original note was asking for details of the tactical numbers used by the command panzers of SS Pz Rgt 12 in the Ardennes. All their numbers are in the listing given by Anekcen in note #2 above.

Have since found photo another photo of 058, photo exist of two Panthers in the Ardennes numbered 056 and 058, which makes them two panzers from the Stab of SS Pz Rgt 12's Aufklarungs Zug.

The other panzers of the Stab SS Pz Rgt 12 were 054, 055 as Befehl Pz and 056, 057, 058 being regular gun panzers in the Aufkl Zug.

cheers PAUL

[Alanmccoubrey]

Hi,
Panzer tactical number 154 was one of three Behfl Panthers in the Stab of the I/SS PzRgt 12 in Normandy. The other two were 153 and 155.

cheers PAUL

Thank you! Are you sure, though? I belong to an FB Panther's group, the group's expert says it's impossible for the Befehlspanthers to have such numbers. On the other hand, a specialist French magazine does mention no. 154 as one. A puzzle....

Has your "expert" read the book "Waffen-SS Armur in Normandy" do you think ? The book actually has the translation of the orders referring to the numbering and colouring of those numbers for the entire Regiment and quite clearly the I. Abt Kommandeur is 155, the Adjutant is 154, Signals Officer is 153 and the Recce Platoon are 156 - 160.

[Алексей]

Hi,
Panzer tactical number 154 was one of three Behfl Panthers in the Stab of the I/SS PzRgt 12 in Normandy. The other two were 153 and 155.

cheers PAUL

Thank you! Are you sure, though? I belong to an FB Panther's group, the group's expert says it's impossible for the Befehlspanthers to have such numbers. On the other hand, a specialist French magazine does mention no. 154 as one. A puzzle....

Has your "expert" read the book "Waffen-SS Armur in Normandy" do you think ? The book actually has the translation of the orders referring to the numbering and colouring of those numbers for the entire Regiment and quite clearly the I. Abt Kommandeur is 155, the Adjutant is 154, Signals Officer is 153 and the Recce Platoon are 156 - 160.

[Alanmccoubrey]

Hi,
Panzer tactical number 154 was one of three Behfl Panthers in the Stab of the I/SS PzRgt 12 in Normandy. The other two were 153 and 155.

cheers PAUL

Thank you! Are you sure, though? I belong to an FB Panther's group, the group's expert says it's impossible for the Befehlspanthers to have such numbers. On the other hand, a specialist French magazine does mention no. 154 as one. A puzzle....

Has your "expert" read the book "Waffen-SS Armur in Normandy" do you think ? The book actually has the translation of the orders referring to the numbering and colouring of those numbers for the entire Regiment and quite clearly the I. Abt Kommandeur is 155, the Adjutant is 154, Signals Officer is 153 and the Recce Platoon are 156 - 160.

10645_473.jpg

So now you have it in both English and German for your FB expert.

[NWarr]

I am certainly no expert but I will give it a go;

In order to understand what goes on with SS-Pz.Rgt 12 it is necessary to understand what goes on from early Sept 44 and not at Dec 44;
If you go with what you see superficially in Nov and Dec 44 or you only see some of the Dec reports you do not get the complete picture and this then leads to incorrect assumptions;

In early Sept 44 I./SS-Pz.Rgt 12 shows 1 Einsatz Panther with Kpf.Gr. Millius and most importantly 3 Panthers in Kurz or short term repair that is should be repaired in less than 2 weeks;
While the Einsatz Panther with Kpf.Gr Millius is lost in Sept these 3 Kurz Panthers remain with the Abt;

In order to understand what is going on the following comes from Kamen Nevenkin;
14 Oct 44; an order is issued to reconstitute 12 SS PD. SS-Pz.Rgt 12 is to be organised with a Stab and a single Gem.Abt which is a result of merging both the I and the II.Abt.
The personnel not used for the four Kpn are transferred to the Tr.Ub.Pl Fallingbostel and consolidated into an Ausb.Abt. The order also states that the Division is to be fully operational by 31 Oct, (KN)
The Personnel for the Gem.Abt are drawn from 1, 3, 5 and 6 Kpn while the personnel of 2, 4, 7 and 8 Kpn are transferred to Fallingbostel.
The Abt is then reorganised as follows; Stab, Stabs/Kp, two 1 and 2 Pz.Kpn PzV and 3 and 4 Pz.Kpn PzIV as well as Vers.kp mot.
The 1 and 2 Kpn PzV of the new Abt are formed from the re-designated 1 and 3 Kp of the former I.Abt while the 3 and 4 Kpn are formed from the former 5 and 6 Kpn, (KN P.912)

Because of the shortage of Panthers in late 44 on 1 Nov 44 from P.168 Panzer Truppen II three new K.St.N 1177’s are created;
Most of the Panther Abts in the Ardenne use K.St.N.1177 (fG) Ausf B using 14 Panthers per Kpn;
With the deletion of the Panthers in the Aufklar.zug of the Abt this then saves a total of 17 Panthers;
That is 5 from the Aufklar and 3 Panthers from each Kpn X the four Kpn;
This only becomes official on 1 June but has been in existence on the Eastern Front to some extent and ironically I./SS-Pz.Rgt 12 in Normandy due to a shortage of Panthers for the Abt;

But because both SS-Pz.Rgt 1 and 12 only have a single Gemischte or mixed Abt as above from Kamen they are authorised for K.St.N.1177 (fG) Ausf A with 17 Panthers per Kpn for their two Panther Kpn;
Yeah I know but this is important if you want to truly understand what SS-Pz.Rgt 12 was doing in the Ardenne;
As to the two Stabs both of these on 1 Nov 44 are authorised for 3 Bef Panthers each;
This is still under the original K.St.N.1103 for the Rgt and K.St.N.1150 for the Abt from April 44 consisting of 2 Sd.Kfz. 267’s and 1 Sd.Kfz. 268 for comms with the Luftwaffe;
Obviously the Luftwaffe is now an optional extra and so while the Stabs of the Rgts and Abts are authorised for 3 Bef Panthers now they only receive the 2 Sd.Kfz 267’s;
This also eases production on MAN;
This set up of only 2 Bef Panthers in the Stabs only becomes official on 1 April 45 but has been in effect for nearly 6 months;
Why waste the time and effort on a Panther when there is no Luftwaffe to guide;
There is then the issue of the Aufklar.zug of both the Rgt and the Abt;
For the Rgt the standard fit out is 5 PzIV’s in the Aufklar.zug and for the Abt it is 5 Panthers;
The main reason for this appears to be the use early on of Panther Abts as Heeres-Truppen independent of their Rgts;
To send Panthers along with 5 PzIV’s for the Abt.Stab makes the logistics worse but if they are all Panthers then this should be easier from a logistics point of view;
The main point to this is that in Dec 44 both Stabs should have had an Aufklar with Panzers but these are deleted and again Schwimmwagens are used;
Also importantly no Rgt.Stab is ever officially authorised to use Panthers in their Aufklar.zug;

This then shows an authorised total for the Abt of 34 Sd.Kfz.171 Panthers for the two Kpn and a total of 4 Bef Panthers that is 2 for the Abt.Stab and 2 for the Rgt.Stab for a total of 38 Panthers;
The most important part of this is that the numbers demonstrate that both the Rgt and the Abt.Stab are not authorised to have Panzers in their Aufklar.zug’s;

The next is then from Martin Block who shows a total of 38 Panthers shipped to the Rgt from 25 Oct to 14 Nov;
This then denotes that SS-Pz.Rgt 12 is authorised for a total of 38 Panthers and that a total of 38 Panthers are shipped to the Rgt;
By 1 Nov a total of 20 of the 38 Panthers have been shipped to the Rgt;
However the report from 1 Nov denotes 12 Panthers in the 1 Kpn and 11 in the 2 Kpn which totals an Ist of 23 Panthers while only 20 have so far been shipped to the Abt;
There are also still another 18 Panthers to be shipped to the Abt during Nov;
Therefore this report on 1 Nov demonstrates that the Rgt has an excess of 3 Panthers above its authorised numbers;

Also note that there are no Bef Panthers on hand;
These will be the 4 Panthers shipped to the Rgt on 14 Nov;

All of these Panthers have arrived with the Rgt by late Nov and therefore the reports from Dec 44 should show an Ist or what is on hand with the Rgt of 38 Panthers;
But they do not;
The reports from 1 8 10 and 12 Dec all show SS-Pz.Rgt 12 with an Ist of 41 Panthers while their Soll or what they are authorised for is only 38 Panthers;

And this all goes back to Sept 44 and the 3 Panthers in Kurz;
These 3 Panthers are shown in a report from 14 Oct 44 but the important one comes on 1 Nov 44 and the Materielle Lage supplied by Martin Block;
Again with only a total of 20 Panthers shipped to the Rgt before 1 Nov the Ist on 1 Nov is 23 Panthers;
This then demonstrates that the 3 Panthers that were in Kurz in early Sept are still with the Rgt on 1 Nov;
That these 3 Panthers are left with the Rgt is logical given that they can be used to train new personnel;

The most important point though is that they are still on hand with the Rgt at the start of the Ardenne;
In the report form 8 Dec Jeff Dugdale and Mike wood show these extra 3 Panthers in 1 Kpn for a total of 20 Panthers within the Kpn;
This is possible but this does not appear to be the case at the start of the offensive;

The next piece is what the Aufklar.zug of the Rgt.Stab was actually authorised to have;
With no Panzers authorised for the Aufklar they are officially assigned Schwimmwagen’s;
However the presence of both 056 and 058 demonstrate that the Aufklar.zug of the Rgt.Stab was active with Panthers;
From 4 Jan 44 the numbering for the Aufklar.zug of the Rgt.Stab is 056 057 058 059 and 060 for their 5 respective PzIV’s;
Therefore the numbering of these Panthers in the Ardenne denotes active Panthers in the Aufklar.zug of the Rgt.Stab even though they are not authorised to have Panzers let alone Panthers;
This is not surprising as from early April 44 until 13 July 44 when the Gem.Abt is originally formed various reports show the Rgt makes significant efforts to constantly fund the Aufklar.zug of the both the Rgt and Abt.Stab;
As to the Rgt.Stab from Meyer on 8 July 44 “the Aufklar.zug of the Rgt and the command tank lead by the commandant”;
This does not denote that all 5 PzIV’s are being used but even with only 40 Einsatz PzIV’s Wunsche insists on an Escort;
This sometimes comes at the expense of the various Kpn and this points to how much importance the Rgt places on an active escort for their commanders;

The next piece is the production features of 056 and 058;
Note that it is clear that these 2 Panthers are form the Oct Nov 44 shipments;
This along with the fact that on 1 Nov the 3 Panthers noted in Sept are with 1 and 2 Kpn on 1 Nov also denotes that at the start of the offensive these 3 Panthers were with 1 and or 3 Kpn;
Without photos there is no way to know which;
Also without photos there is no way to know what these Panthers actually looked like;
By that I mean that there is no way to know if they are from the original 79 shipped to the Abt between Nov 43 and June 44 or whether they are part of the 8 Panthers shipped to the Abt on 6 Aug;
The range of production features provable for the Abt in Normandy run from June 43 to late Mai 44 for the 79 and early mid July for the 8 Panthers on 6 Aug redirected from I./Pz.Rgt 36;
These 8 Panthers from 6 Aug are likely the 7 Einsatz Panthers that 4 Kpn shows on 21 Aug but whether it is these or the original 79 that make up the 3 from Sept there is just no way to know without Fahrgestelle numbers or photos;
They will all have zimmerit but their potential production features are so wide that it is just not possible to determine without photos;
There is also enough overlap between the original 79 and these new 8 Panthers that there is no way to be sure about which Panthers are still on hand at the start of Sept;

I doubt any of the at least 9 Ausf D Panthers that I./SS-Pz.Rgt 12 had in Normandy made it through to Sept, but in the end, without photos who the hell knows;
The number of Ausf D with I./SS-Pz.Rgt 12 in Normandy is provable through primary documents;
But this points to how wide the potential production features are for these 3 surviving Normandy Panthers and what they actually looked like in the Ardenne;

So even though the Rgt is not officially authorised for Panthers in the Aufklar.zug of the Rgt.Stab by dragging the 3 Panthers from Sept through to Dec the Abt is actually able to fund the Aufklar of the Rgt to the tune of 3 Panthers;
That the Panthers from Sept can be demonstrated to be in the 1 and 2 Kpn on 1 Nov points to them already being embedded within the Kpn;
The various Ist’s in Dec for the Rgt demonstrate that these 3 Panthers are still on hand with the Abt;
But again it is interesting that the Rgt decides to fund the Aufklar.zug of the Rgt.Stab rather than leave these 3 Panthers with 1 Kpn for a total of 20 Panthers;
This would have allowed a fourth zuege for 1 Kpn with 2 Panthers in the Gr.Fhr along with two zuege of 5 and two zuege of 4 Panthers each;

The photos though show that 056 and 058 come from the Oct Nov loading and therefore these 3 Panthers from Sept are located in either of the two Kpn being used by the Abt;
Without photos where they actually reside in the six zuege is unknown but the primary documents demonstrate that they are there;
It is also important to note that this is the only so far noted occurrence of Panthers in the Aufklar.zug of a Rgt.Stab;
I am yet to see any photos or reports that denote Panthers within the Aufklar.zug of any other Rgt;
This makes both 056 and 058 along with the missing 057 very unique Panthers in the entire Heeres;

Cheers Neill

[spannermann]

Hi Neill,
So what you are saying is that due to the German shortage of Panzers in late 1944, they modified their Regimental and Battalion requirements so as not to have panzers in the Aufklärungs Zug of those headquarters. 
But the only exception so far seen to that, is the Panthers of the I / SS Pz Rgt 12 in the Ardennes. (056 and 058) 
cheers PAUL

[Enekoitz]

Better late than never, thank you all for the rich info shared.