StuH-44/2 - Jagdpanzer 38t "Hetzer" with 105mm howitzer?

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StuH-44/2 - Jagdpanzer 38t "Hetzer" with 105mm howitzer?

#1

Post by PanzerModeler » 06 Sep 2022, 03:29

I keep seeing models for a Jagdpanzer 38(t) "Hetzer" armed with a 105mm howitzer, called a StuH-44/2. Essentially it looks like the familiar Jagdpanzer 38t, except with the usual 75mm replaced with the short barrel 105mm usually seen on the StuH-42.

I did some quick Google searches and found claims of it being a proposal, or a prototype, or possibly one of several prototypes.

Hopefully, someone here can shed some light on this. Personally I can't see this idea working out very well at all especially given how cramped the regular Jagdpanzer 38t was. Seems like a larger gun could only make things worse.

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Re: StuH-44/2 - Jagdpanzer 38t "Hetzer" with 105mm howitzer?

#2

Post by ThatZenoGuy » 08 Sep 2022, 13:51

Image
The only hetzer variant I am aware of with a 105 is this lil guy.
Other Hetzer variants existed (either mockup, limited production, or paper), but they all had 75mm cannons, AA guns, etc.


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Re: StuH-44/2 - Jagdpanzer 38t "Hetzer" with 105mm howitzer?

#3

Post by Grzesio » 08 Sep 2022, 14:17

Isn't it a sJG 33, a 15 cm gun?

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Re: StuH-44/2 - Jagdpanzer 38t "Hetzer" with 105mm howitzer?

#4

Post by arminfreitag » 08 Sep 2022, 21:18

Hi
it's definitaly a 15cm sIG 33/2 on a Bergepanzer 38 chassis.
Here some more pictures (source: internet) of this version.
I don't know anything about a Hetzer with 10,5 cm gun.

Regards
Armin
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bergehetzersig33-small (4).jpg
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bergehetzersig33-small (3).jpg
bergehetzersig33-small (3).jpg (98.3 KiB) Viewed 1579 times
bergehetzersig33-small (2).jpg
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Re: StuH-44/2 - Jagdpanzer 38t "Hetzer" with 105mm howitzer?

#5

Post by Tanzania » 09 Sep 2022, 05:36

PanzerModeler wrote:
06 Sep 2022, 03:29
I keep seeing models for a Jagdpanzer 38(t) "Hetzer" armed with a 105mm howitzer, called a StuH-44/2. Essentially it looks like the familiar Jagdpanzer 38t, except with the usual 75mm replaced with the short barrel 105mm usually seen on the StuH-42.
I did some quick Google searches and found claims of it being a proposal, or a prototype, or possibly one of several prototypes.
Hopefully, someone here can shed some light on this. Personally I can't see this idea working out very well at all especially given how cramped the regular Jagdpanzer 38t was. Seems like a larger gun could only make things worse.

I'm a bit confused about the model designation of this 10.5 cm assault howitzer.

A 10.5-cm StuH 42 in the StuG III is well known (with "Saukopfblende" or bolted)
Photos: https://mm-military-models.de/uploads/1 ... 4_orig.jpg --- https://www.worldwarphotos.info/wp-cont ... ine_44.jpg


The Wehrmacht encyclopedia mentions a 10,5-cm StuH 43/2 in the text (However, it is only a 10.5 cm StuH 42)
https://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Wa ... ze43-2.pdf


I only know a model designation 10,5-cm StuH 44/2 only as a plastic model:
https://www.google.de/search?q=10,5cm+S ... 2&dpr=1.09
10,5 cm StuH 44-2 on Jagdpanzer 38.png
Source: https://kamar-zinnfiguren.de/de/Masssta ... -1-72.html

Was the 10,5 cm SthH 44/2 variant only a prototype or a study?

Cheers Holger
“Day by day and almost minute by minute the past was brought up to date. . . . All History was a
palimpsest, scraped clean and reinscribed exactly as often as was necessary” – G. ORWELL 1984

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Re: StuH-44/2 - Jagdpanzer 38t "Hetzer" with 105mm howitzer?

#6

Post by brano » 09 Sep 2022, 10:01

It is probably just an idea or a project. It is probably based on the published works of Mr. Spielberger. There is no information about the construction of any prototype. The considerations concerned both the Jagpanzer 38(t) and the Jadpanzer 38D. There was also a post-war Czechoslovak project with a 10.5 cm leFH 18 carriage.

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Re: StuH-44/2 - Jagdpanzer 38t "Hetzer" with 105mm howitzer?

#7

Post by arminfreitag » 10 Sep 2022, 00:50

Hi
after Brano mentioned Spielberger, I checked his book about the
PzKpfw 38 (t) and I found a list of projects on the basis of Jagdpanzer 38.
Actually the list contains 2 variants of Hetzer with 10,5 cm gun:
Gerät 567 Sturmhaubitzwagen 638/13 - 10,5 cm StuH 42/3 (5-1065) (26.10.1944)
Gerät 571 Sturmhaubitzwagen 638/14 - 10,5 cm StuH 42/2
There is also a drawing but no more information.

Regards
Armin
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Re: StuH-44/2 - Jagdpanzer 38t "Hetzer" with 105mm howitzer?

#8

Post by ThatZenoGuy » 10 Sep 2022, 06:51

Grzesio wrote:
08 Sep 2022, 14:17
Isn't it a sJG 33, a 15 cm gun?
Yeah my mistake, that's a 150mm field gun.
No operational Hetzer seems to have had the 105mm. Some with short 75's existed however.

The redesigned 38(D) hull had a lot of planned variants ranging from casemate 75mm L/70 to anti-aircraft turrets. One of these had a 105mm allegedly. Although late-war German paper designs are a mess of fiction, reality, and theoretical designs.

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Re: StuH-44/2 - Jagdpanzer 38t "Hetzer" with 105mm howitzer?

#9

Post by Tanzania » 10 Sep 2022, 10:06

Brano & arminfreitag; - many thanks for your reply and clarification about the models of the 10,5-cm StuH.

Regarding the original mention of the 15-cm IG 33; I have an additional question here:

The 15-cm s.IG 33 L/11,4 was a weapon that was, due to demand produced, also on the wheel mount up to 1945.
This original model was also further developed with the 15-cm StuH 43 L/12, for the Sturmpanzer IV, ("Brummbär").
Both versions even fired the same ammunition!

15-cm StuH 43 L12.png

Original online Source: WAFFEN REVUE No. 86, page 40 & 41
https://docplayer.org/209473547-Waffen- ... v-i-j.html


Was this further development also available on a wheel mount; - as prototype od study?

Cheers Holger
“Day by day and almost minute by minute the past was brought up to date. . . . All History was a
palimpsest, scraped clean and reinscribed exactly as often as was necessary” – G. ORWELL 1984

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Re: StuH-44/2 - Jagdpanzer 38t "Hetzer" with 105mm howitzer?

#10

Post by PanzerModeler » 18 Sep 2022, 10:23

arminfreitag wrote:
10 Sep 2022, 00:50
Hi
after Brano mentioned Spielberger, I checked his book about the
PzKpfw 38 (t) and I found a list of projects on the basis of Jagdpanzer 38.
Actually the list contains 2 variants of Hetzer with 10,5 cm gun:
Gerät 567 Sturmhaubitzwagen 638/13 - 10,5 cm StuH 42/3 (5-1065) (26.10.1944)
Gerät 571 Sturmhaubitzwagen 638/14 - 10,5 cm StuH 42/2
There is also a drawing but no more information.

Regards
Armin
So, merely "paper panzers" that were never actually built?

My first reaction was to imagine how cramped the interior must be when changing to the 10,5cm gun. Seems like it would be worse than with the usual 75mm PaK.

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Re: StuH-44/2 - Jagdpanzer 38t "Hetzer" with 105mm howitzer?

#11

Post by ThatZenoGuy » 19 Sep 2022, 08:55

PanzerModeler wrote:
18 Sep 2022, 10:23
arminfreitag wrote:
10 Sep 2022, 00:50
Hi
after Brano mentioned Spielberger, I checked his book about the
PzKpfw 38 (t) and I found a list of projects on the basis of Jagdpanzer 38.
Actually the list contains 2 variants of Hetzer with 10,5 cm gun:
Gerät 567 Sturmhaubitzwagen 638/13 - 10,5 cm StuH 42/3 (5-1065) (26.10.1944)
Gerät 571 Sturmhaubitzwagen 638/14 - 10,5 cm StuH 42/2
There is also a drawing but no more information.

Regards
Armin
So, merely "paper panzers" that were never actually built?

My first reaction was to imagine how cramped the interior must be when changing to the 10,5cm gun. Seems like it would be worse than with the usual 75mm PaK.
As I understand it the 105mm was a lower pressure/shorter weapon, so it's breech was surprisingly not too much larger than the 75mm high velocity gun.

No doubt it was harder to reload than the 75, but rather foolishly the Hetzer's loader was on the wrong side of the 75mm gun...

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Re: StuH-44/2 - Jagdpanzer 38t "Hetzer" with 105mm howitzer?

#12

Post by PanzerModeler » 19 Sep 2022, 12:36

That's pretty much in line with what I thought. I have this kit on order now and I'll likely build it, paint it Dunkelgelb, and add it to the Paper Panzer collection.

Image

UniModel has been quite prolific in pumping out lots of 1/72 scale kits, but sadly it's hard to tell which of them are fictional and which are not.

I am familiar with the early and late production Jagdpanzer 38t "Hetzer". I am familiar with the Hetzer based Flammpanzer, I understand the 150mm SiG-33 mounted on the Hetzer was made in minimal numbers but it was made. I am familiar with the Bergepanzer variation...


Then I start seeing these, an I'm not sure which are real, which are fantasy, and which were only ever on paper?

1
Image

2.
Image

Those two remind me of modernization or re-do of the older riveted Aufklarungspanzer 38t variants redone on the more modern hull. But are they fact of fiction?

3.
Image

This one strikes me as hard to believe for a factory product due to the lack of ability to target ground targets, but perhaps a field conversion or improvisation?

4.
Image

5.
Image

These last two... The first one I swear I saw somewhere as a drawing or mockup or suggestion but I understand it never to have been built.

The last one there strikes me as the product of someone just saying "wish it had a bigger gun on it" without any real consideration for all that entails, and it can't possibly be real?

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Re: StuH-44/2 - Jagdpanzer 38t "Hetzer" with 105mm howitzer?

#13

Post by ThatZenoGuy » 19 Sep 2022, 12:51

There was a plan to fit the L/70 on the Jagdpanzer 38(d), but not on the standard hetzer hull.

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Re: StuH-44/2 - Jagdpanzer 38t "Hetzer" with 105mm howitzer?

#14

Post by PanzerModeler » 19 Sep 2022, 15:05

ThatZenoGuy wrote:
19 Sep 2022, 12:51
There was a plan to fit the L/70 on the Jagdpanzer 38(d), but not on the standard hetzer hull.
I've heard of that, but since the 38d never went into production past a few prototypes, right?

Does that make both of those variants fantasy projects then?

One final one I'll throw out there is this thing...

Image

Another one where I can't tell if it's fact or fiction!

This company is a little unusual in that their interest seems to cover many unusual prototypes and one-off vehicles based around the Panzer38t chassis that are frequently ignored. They also seem to have a thing for flame-thrower tanks. Sometimes it's hard for me to find good documentation on what they're offering as a kit.

On the other hand, they don't even fully cover the Panzer III and IV lineage, essentially only starting with vehicles that would have been typical during Operation Barbarossa, but no attention given to earlier variants.

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Re: StuH-44/2 - Jagdpanzer 38t "Hetzer" with 105mm howitzer?

#15

Post by ThatZenoGuy » 19 Sep 2022, 17:49

PanzerModeler wrote:
19 Sep 2022, 15:05
ThatZenoGuy wrote:
19 Sep 2022, 12:51
There was a plan to fit the L/70 on the Jagdpanzer 38(d), but not on the standard hetzer hull.
I've heard of that, but since the 38d never went into production past a few prototypes, right?

Does that make both of those variants fantasy projects then?

One final one I'll throw out there is this thing...

Image

Another one where I can't tell if it's fact or fiction!

This company is a little unusual in that their interest seems to cover many unusual prototypes and one-off vehicles based around the Panzer38t chassis that are frequently ignored. They also seem to have a thing for flame-thrower tanks. Sometimes it's hard for me to find good documentation on what they're offering as a kit.

On the other hand, they don't even fully cover the Panzer III and IV lineage, essentially only starting with vehicles that would have been typical during Operation Barbarossa, but no attention given to earlier variants.
I don't believe any (d) hulls were built, only paper. There was however the Jagdpanzer 38(t) Starr, which had a few built (then converted back into normal Hetzers).

Apparently there was plans for PAW 600 and Panzer 4 turret Hetzers (and an AA version) but, generally it was regarded as simply too small a hull to take such a feature, thus any turreted Hetzers would've realistically been (d)'s.

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