Pionierzug

[yantaylor]

Hi everyone.

I have started making plans on a Panzergrenadier Pionierzug (Gepanzert). The main KStN I have found is from 1.3.1943, which contains;
1 x Sd.kfz 251/10
6 x Sd.kfz 251/7s
The squads look to be around seven per halftrack with around 45 men divided between the six 251/7s.
I was surprized to see that all the halftracks where 251/7s complete with light bridge sections, I would have guessed that may two or three carried these sections and the rest just 251/1s.

How would the Sd.kfz 251/16 fit into this, was the 251/16 used by the engineers? Or was the Flammenwerferzug an independent unit.

God save the King
Ian

[Alanmccoubrey]

Ian, You have to remember that the interior of the 251/7 was different from the 251/1 as it was expected to carry Pionier stores and not as many men, only six men per vehicle which along with the three Gruppenfuhrer and six drivers gives you the 45 men.

The 251/16 was added to this organisation as a six vehicle "Zug" if they were issued with it but is could sometimes be found in the RHQ of the Panzergrenadiers or in the Divisional Pionier Bataillon. Some Divisions had a section of two 251/16 in their Recce Bn's Heavy Company, 21 PD for example.

https://www.wwiidaybyday.com/kstn/kstn11301aug43.htm

[yantaylor]

Excellent Alan, thank you very much.

I have a few PSC 251s Ausf C kits left over and I have a collection of Revell German engineer figures too, the PSC kit has options to build either the 251/7 and 16 plus of course the 251/10

Ian

[yantaylor]

Oh! one last question Alan, would each of the three Gruppenfuhrer's control two 251/7s?

Ian

[yantaylor]

From what I can remember, didn't the 1944 panzer divisions have armoured pioneers in other armoured units and not just in the pioneer battalion?

I sure the panzer recon battalion had a armoured pioneer platoon in its heavy company.

Would they be mirror images of the one in the link?

Ian

[Alanmccoubrey]

Oh! one last question Alan, would each of the three Gruppenfuhrer's control two 251/7s?

Ian

Yes.

[Alanmccoubrey]

From what I can remember, didn't the 1944 panzer divisions have armoured pioneers in other armoured units and not just in the pioneer battalion?

I sure the panzer recon battalion had a armoured pioneer platoon in its heavy company.

Would they be mirror images of the one in the link?

Ian

The Panzer Regiment had a platoon of soldiers whose task was to do route clearing and recce so they were a kind of combined Pionier/Aufklaerer but they were not military engineers in the sense that you mean.
I did mention the Pionier Zug in the Heavy Companies when dealing with the 251/16 and your original question was about the Pionier in the Panzergrenadier Regiments so are you not just circling back on yourself now ?

[yantaylor]

You did Alan, I am sorry.

I written my post on my computer but noticed my error when I viewed my message later from my phone, I couldn't correct it because I can't log on from my phone.

Didn't the Pionier Zug in the Heavy Company resemble its brothers in the divisional pioneer battalion, with 251/7s.

Was it late in 1944 when the pioneers became armoured? Nafzeiger has the pioneer battalion in trucks in the type 43 september organization, its the august type 44 which has them in 251s.

Ian

[Alanmccoubrey]

Ian, I don't know how to answer you anymore. You ask about the Pionierzug, then you ask about the Flammwerferzug and now you're back to the Pionierzug.
Why wouldn't the Recce Bn's platoon be the same as the others ? You have to understand that they could also have "attachments". I was merely trying to give you a full answer about who had the 25/16.

[yantaylor]

Alan, I was simply expanding my questions about armoured pioneers, that is what I do, I have took your advice and used it for reference when I complete my zug, I then went on to motorised pioneers because it looks like (if Nafzeiger is right), that the armoured version didn't come into play until late 1944.

I am greatful to you for confirming that the same structure was used for all armoured pioneer zugs throught the division and I will use that information.

I can't see what the problem is by expanding my questions, they are not that far off topic, the units are still German pioneers.
Other posters may also like the direction I am going, not everyone has your level of knowladge in this field and may also benifit.

I have said I am sorry for my early mistake, but if the thread is causing you concern, I can end my questions.

Ian

[Gary Kennedy]

Hi Ian,

There was a bit of 'to and fro' re the Panzer Grenadiers and their own Pioneer elements, and it does depend on when you're looking at, as there was a big change in the provision of pioneers in the Panzer Grenadier Regiment from late 1943. Just a quick precis of the developments from 1943 to 1944 (with some duplication of the above info sorry);

The Nov 1941 KStN for the Panzer Grenadier Battalion outlined a Pioneer Platoon of 1 officer, 6 NCOs and 46 men. This had four Squads, each an NCO and 9 men, carried in an SdKfz 251/5. The Mar 1943 table you've found was (I think) only used in a few units, and was based on three Squads, and had a total strength of 1 officer, 5 NCOs and 53 men. Platoon HQ was down for the SdKfz 251/10, and each Squad a pair of SdKfz 251/7. Squad size worked out to an NCO and 14 men with two LMGs. Panzer Reconnaissance Battalions used the relevant Pioneer Platoon KStNs as for the Panzer Grenadiers.

The new series of Panzer Division KStN dated Nov 1943 did indeed remove the Pioneer Platoons from the Panzer Grenadier Battalions (forming a Pioneer Company in the Panzer Grenadier Regiment), while the Panzer Reconnaissance Battalion kept their Pioneer Platoon. The latter was a slightly slimmed down version of the March 1943 Platoon, still based on three Squads, each of two SdKfz 251/7s, plus one for Platoon HQ.

In the Panzer Grenadier Regiment Pioneer Company, there were three Motorised Platoons (when the Regiment was Motorised) or two Motorised and one Armoured Platoons when the Regiment include a halftracked Battalion. The armoured Pioneer Platoon was 1 officer, 4 NCOs and 44 men, still in three Squads, each Squad with two LMGs and two SdKfz 251/7s, plus a halftrack for Platoon HQ.

The Panzer Pioneer Battalion is another subject really, I'll see if I get chance to remind myself how they shaped up later on!

Gary

[yantaylor]

Hi Gary.

Great stuff, I have half a dozen 251s and some Revell pioneers, so I need advice to see which one will work for me.

I have finished my Pz gren company and half way through my recce platoon, I shall be in touch with you.
I remember promising you a few photos of my Pz Gren Company circa 1943/44, so I will keep that promise.

Thanks
Ian

[yantaylor]

Gary; I have sent you a photo from the email address on you website.

Ian