Post
by Paul Hanson » 31 Aug 2004 23:31
Thanks Christian;
Obviously, Sbf.Koch, you haven't be on these sites for long. As Christian alluded: This hoary old outdated myth appears every couple of months somewhere. Here is the story in reality, not the crap you've been reading:
From various postings:
Mattens,
So-called solution B is an author's fabrication based on bits and pieces of reality. I have the same ground power, some marks on a mantlet do not equal a functional infrared gun aiming system.
The output of the FG1250 gun/driving scope is in effect a small television screen (i.e. a cathode ray oscilloscope) on which was projected the converted IR image in contrasting shades of green, (green, green always green, only pre war experimental stuff projected in orange (all nations) like Baird's televised infra red image of 1926).
So-called solution B has the FG1250 bolted to the front of the mantlet some 100mm from the standard gunners (Panther D binocular sight).
Using your imagination try to picture what the gunner would see… let me tell you, a green out of focus blob. Gunners sights resolve from around 500mm to infinity and the aperture of the opening in the mantlet means only half of the screen would be seen if it was ever used like that, I've tried. Furthermore the FG1250 sight could be focussed from 5 - 300 meters how was that done from the gunners position and how was the supporting transformer etc stowed in the turret in which little room could be found for the commanders IR gear.
Further fanciful drawings (Trojca et al) of multiple fittings for gunner and driver completely ignore the main armament and the effect it would have on all the rubbish in the way of traverse or what would happen when the main or secondary was fired. (i.e. it would all go down range with the blast).
But lets stick to the documented facts, that the designer Dr Gaertner states categorically such a combination was not even envisaged because they couldn't afford more than one FG1250 per vehicle due to the poor production rates. (Falkes only had one FG1250 for the MG and one FG1252 for the driver - essentially the same item the 1250 was much better quality than the 1252/53 driving scopes).
Further information (with special thanks to Mirko) comes from the records of the 'German Army infrared working group' minutes of their meetings for the first half of 1945 has no evidence of that combination or any thing else except the Panther as we know it. (They also hope to fit it to the new Panther 88 when that appeared.)
They where for instance having enormous problems scrounging the old cupola hour rings used in the mount we know and had ruled out the possibility of providing armour for the exposed commander as being not possible.
The German army only ever fielded IR on the Panther in the manner that is well documented. It was only used in small numbers and was not really field-ready, but good results could be obtained when the temperamental gear worked. Conversely the Western allies had 10,000 infrared TABBY sets manufactured and in store west of the Rhine and would have pummeled any mass use by the Germans there (The Germans knew this and did not deploy IR, per Guderian's orders, on the western front). The Russians also had IR technology.
Jon.
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The use of IR by German nachtjäger(armored or otherwise)units is vastly over-rated and over-estimated. Thanks to Cran Smith here's a brief synopsis:
I./24, I/130, I./6 and I./11 all began IR training at Fallingbostel in fall '44, all with nice new IR Panthers. The crisis in Hungary led to all four abtn being sent there, all without their IR gear. By the time things settled out, it was late winter '45. The only units to operationally use FG 1250s were four designated independent kpn: 3./6 in Hungary and 1./29, 1./130 and 4./11 at the Seelow Heights. IR use was actually quite short-lived, because Soviet strength was so overwhelming that minor tactical success from IR assaults yielded no operational gains, and the Sovs were too strong to depend on night attacks alone. They also may have used searchlights to defeat IR. No IR use in the West, ever. That apocryphal Brit account of its use is bogus, merely someone making excuses for inferior night tactics, says Jon Bailey.
Other accounts from vets said the stuff was heavy and unwieldy, and not all that effective.
Hope this helps. It's pretty obvious that these units were few and had basically no effect on the course of the war. Mirko Bayerl, Cran, Jon Bailey and others have been researching this and the above is a very abridged summary of their efforts.
Paul
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Hi !
Paul statement, that no Panther with IR equipment
was ever used against the Allies, is correct. I want
to apologize for the posting of incorrect information.
When I wrote my message I used only my memory. I checked
some files in my archive(various files of GenInspdPzTr
and OrgAbt/GenStbH) and now I'll try to "enlight" this
topic(IR Panthers).
An document issued by GenInspdPzTr on 26.6.44 states that,
according to Guderian orders, I./PzLehrR 130 will be the
first unit equiped with IR-PzV. This unit was created on
29.7.44,but was sent to the front(Western) without IR devices.
In the beginning of Oct'44 I./130 was sent back to the rear
(Fallingbostel training ground). Between 19.10 and 22.10.44
a total of 56 "simple" PzV(w/o IR) were recieved by this unit.
On 27.9.44 it was ordered to send I./PzR 6 (tactically subordinated
to PzLehrDiv) to Fallingbostel training ground for rebuilding.
Between 29.10 and 4.11.44 a total of 33 "simple"
PzV(w/o IR) were recieved by this unit.
On 7.11.44 I./130 was renamed in I./6 and vice versa.
On 29.8.44 it was orderd to send I./PzR 11(tactically subordinated
to 8.PzD) to Grafenwoenr training ground for
rebuilding. Between 22.10 and 27.10.44 a total of 28 "simple"
PzV (w/o IR) were recieved by this unit.
On 4.11.44 an subordination of 4./PzR 11 to newly formed PzBr 150
was ordered.
A toatal of 27 IR-PzV's were shipped from HZa to I./6 between
17.11 and 4.12.44
A toatal of 32 IR-PzV's were shipped from HZa to I./11 between
11.11 and 2.12.44
4 IR PzV's were shipped from HZa to I./130 on 9.12.44
All these units saw action in Hungary during Dec'44. The area
between lakes Balaton and Velence was, probably, the first
battleground where IR-PzV's were used.
On 5.1.45 it was ordered to send I./130 back to its parent division.
All available Panthers were left behind.
On 11.1.45 it was ordered to send I./24 to Hungary. This Abt was
tactically subordinated to 1.PzD. It was to be shipped from
Grafenwoenr training ground with 14 "simple" PzV. Another 46 "simple"
PzV's were to recieved during the transportation. However, according
to the records of GenInspdPzTr show that between 17.1 and 25.1.45 a
total of 50 "simple" PzV (w/o IR) were recieved by this unit. Probably
the remaining 10 PzV's were IR-PzV's(or some of them) left behind by
other units.
On 12.2.45 it was ordered one Kp of Fuehrer-Grenadier Division(1./101)
to be equiped with 10 IR-PzV's and 3 SdKfz 251/20. However, this order
was never materialized.
10 IR PzV's were recieved by 3./6 on 7.3.45. Right after that this Kp
was sent to its parent division(3.PzD)
On 13.3.45 it was ordered one Kp of 19.PzD and 26.PzD(4./27 and 3./26)
to be equiped with 10 IR-PzV's and 3 SdKfz 251/20 each.
On 16.3.45 it was ordered one PzKp of I./29 and one PzGrKp(of PzGR 25)
to be equiped with IR machines.
On 23.3.45 it was ordered one Kp of I./130, I./PzR "Brandenburg" and
KGr "Dreyer"(4./PzR 11) to be equiped with 10 IR-PzV's and 3 SdKfz
251/20 each.
On 23.3.45 10 IR-PzV's were shipped from HZa to the Kp of I./130 which
was mentioned above. Soon after that this Kp was shipped from Wuensdorf
training ground to Muencheberg area where it was tactically subordinated
to 25.PzGD.
On 1.4.45 1./29 and 2./PzGrR 25 was located in Wuensdorf training ground,
and 4./27, 3./26, 4./11 and 4./"Br" - in Fallingbostel training ground.
The same document states that a Kp of I./39 was sent from its parent
division(17.PzD) to Fallingbostel to be equiped with IR-PzV's.
10 IR PzV's were shipped from HZa to I./29 on 5.4.45.
10 IR PzV's were shipped from HZa to 4./11 on 8.4.45.
On 19.4.45 the personal of 3./26 was shipped to PzD "Muencheberg",
the personal of 4./27 - back to 19.PzD and the personal of 4./"Br"
- back to PzGD "Kurmark".
On 19.4.45 it was ordered 4./11 alongside with PzGKp "Uelzen"(equiped
with SPW's with IR) to be shipped from Wuensdorf training ground to
7.PzD in Neusterlitz area. However, this order was chaged twice and
on 22.4.45 both Kp were attached to KGr "Ritter" in Zossen area.
Have a nice day,
Kamen
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Hi Guys,
Kamens post is in general correct - but some of the units never recieved IR Panthers. Units that really saw combat with IR Panthers was a Versuchs unit under command of a Haas ( ca 4-5 Panthers) . It was in Hungary Dec-Jan 44-45. Otherwise during the Winter they cancelled the operations with IR device becauce of the snow which made the IR "Blind"
Later the 1./29 (Rasim) saw combat at Seelow heights 4. /11 southeast of Berlin and finally the 1/130 in area Berlin. Reports says (perhaps) that a couple of vehicles of 1/BR (staff) saw action with the IR.
Small groups was tested as well but without Panthers. Some crews saw a "lehrgang" but (ex Pz.Rgt 27) saw never action with the Panthers.
The 3./6 recieved its Panther and was transported to Hungary in March 45 but saw never action - as they were afraid it would fall in the advancing russian hands. The crew had one problem and it was to identify foe or friend throug the device - it was like looking on a old movie and you could not see if it was a T-34 or a Panther. Thats why they "hold" fire many times. On each IR Panther it was 2-3 Soldiers that was guarded the Tank armed with IR MP 44. They were also guarded on the back by a steel plate.
( I cant post pictures - but if you go to www. missing -links you will see a Panther from 1./29 based on facts .Interwievs with Vets etc).
Well just a short reply...
Well concerning the units I/130...I/24...I/11 is correct they rushed to Hungary in Dec.44 but without any IR equippment -one Comp of I/130 (1:st) stayed in Germany as a base for the later I/130 and continiud training with IR.
The main reason they did not use the IR in Dec - Feb 44-45 was two reasons...the equippment was not reliable enough and as i said they did not used IR during the winter and snow. Just a short history - over and out
regards Mirko
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Just a personal comment, "Paul" above is me. This gets brought up constantly and many of us have to blow it out of the water constantly. NO IR use in the west and pratically none in the east.
Moderators, how about locking this down again before it gets out of hand.
Paul
[/u]
Paul
)
are you serious about MOHAA? hmm... well to be sure: MOHAA is Medal of Honor: Allied Assault - a GREAT ww2 shooter and great fun to play online!
