InfraRed equipped Panthers-Combat reports?Story's?Discussion

Discussions on the vehicles used by the Axis forces. Hosted by Christian Ankerstjerne
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Simon K
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Justb to muddy it more...

Post by Simon K » 27 Dec 2008 00:30

I have somewhere a short reference to these panther IR units (or unit) in East Prussia? This source is from the 1970s. Let me dig a bit..

Simon K

Edward L. Hsiao
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Re: InfraRed equipped Panthers-Combat reports?Story's?Discussion

Post by Edward L. Hsiao » 25 Apr 2017 03:39

Gentlemen,

This is getting to be interesting indeed!

Edward L. Hsiao

Jan-Hendrik
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Re: InfraRed equipped Panthers-Combat reports?Story's?Discussion

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 25 Apr 2017 13:52

One action took place on the 21st of April 1945. The last ten
tanks of "Clausewitz", followed by a Puma 20 mm (Sd.Kfz.
234/1) recce vehicle, approached a US antitank-gun position
(76 mm AT gun M2) at the Weser/Elbe Canal.
By the way: this should be the Elbeseitenkanal....


Jan-Hendrik

forttravel
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Re: InfraRed equipped Panthers-Combat reports?Story's?Discussion

Post by forttravel » 05 May 2017 19:21

Two short Russian reports about Panthers with IR night fire control devices from 25th and 31th March 1945.
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Edward L. Hsiao
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Re: InfraRed equipped Panthers-Combat reports?Story's?Discussion

Post by Edward L. Hsiao » 06 May 2017 21:32

Gentlemen,

I wish these reports could have been translated into English!

Edward L. Hsiao

SIS 5
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Re: InfraRed equipped Panthers-Combat reports?Story's?Discussion

Post by SIS 5 » 16 May 2017 16:45

Hi Edward,

sorry, my English is not so good. So I could translate the first Russian report only into German. Maybe it is helpful. The next will follow, when I will have some time.

Regards

Bert

Stab
1. Gardepanzerarmee
Aufklärungsabteilung
25. März 1945 Geheim.

An die Kommandeure der Korps und einzelnen Truppenteile der 1. Gardepanzerarmee

Bei den Panzertruppen des Gegners wurden Geräte für das Schießen bei Nacht von Panzern des Typs „Panther“ und Schützenpanzerwagen geschaffen. Die durchgeführten Schießversuche von Panzern bei Nacht mit Hilfe dieser Geräte brachten positive Ergebnisse.
Beim Aufbau des Geräts handelt es sich im Folgenden um: am Stirnteil des Panzerturms ist ein gewöhnlicher Scheinwerfer montiert, in dem sich ein spezieller Filter befindet, der nur Infrarotstrahlen durchlässt, nicht sichtbar für das Auge. Auf dem Dach des Turmes ist ein bewegliches Periskop-Sichtgerät installiert, durch das das Ziel gut sichtbar ist, das mit Infrarotstrahlen beleuchtet ist. Das Zusammenwirken des Periskops mit dem Scheinwerfer bietet die Möglichkeit, Ziele mit der Panzerkanone bei Nacht zu treffen, weil der Richtschütze das Ziel gut sieht, beleuchtet durch Infrarotstrahlen, aber dieser Panzer mit der Apparatur als Ziel nicht sichtbar ist. Es sind Angaben vorhanden, dass im Sommer 194(?) zwei Panther-Panzerabteilungen mit dem Nachtschießgerät aufgestellt worden sind, welches das Ziel bis auf eine Entfernung von 400 Metern beleuchtet. Außerdem gehören zum Bestand jeder Panzerkompanie einer Pantherabteilung 3 – 4 Schützenpanzerwagen mit dem Nachtschießgerät, welches das Ziel bis auf eine Entfernung von 800 Metern beleuchtet.

Der Kommandeur der Armee hat befohlen:
1. In allen Fällen erhöhter Wirkungen nächtlichen Beschusses durch den Gegner von Panzern und Schützenpanzerwagen ist das mir zu melden.
2. Angaben über das Nachtschießgerät bei Panzern sind an die Kommandeure der Panzer- und Motorisierte Schützenkompanien und an den Kommandeur der Artillerie zu melden.

Der Leiter des Stabes der 1. Gardepanzerarmee Generalleutnant Schalin
Der Leiter der Aufklärungsabteilung der 1. Gardepanzerarmee Oberst Sobolev

Jan-Hendrik
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Re: InfraRed equipped Panthers-Combat reports?Story's?Discussion

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 17 May 2017 05:26

Thank you!!

Jan-Hendrik

Edward L. Hsiao
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Re: InfraRed equipped Panthers-Combat reports?Story's?Discussion

Post by Edward L. Hsiao » 17 May 2017 19:56

Gentlemen,

Well I understand a little bit of German but I still don't understand the reports. I still feel better if the reports are translated into English. Periskops(periscopes), Schienwerfer(searchlight),Richtschutze(gunner). A few German words that I knew.

Sincerely,

Edward L. Hsiao

SIS 5
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Re: InfraRed equipped Panthers-Combat reports?Story's?Discussion

Post by SIS 5 » 22 May 2017 19:37

Hi,

here the translation from the second report. Sorry, also in German.

Regards

Bert

Stab
5. Stalingrader Gardeartilleriestoßdivision
31. März 1945 Geheim.

An die Kommandeure der Artilleriebrigaden
Es sind Angaben vorhanden, dass der Gegner auf einigen Panzern vom Typs „Panther“ ein Gerät installiert hat, bei dem ultrarote Strahlen für eine bessere Sicht beim Schießen von Panzern bei Nacht auf Entfernungen von 300 – 800 Metern verwendet werden.
Einen solchen Panzer mit einer intakten Apparatur in Besitz zu nehmen ist sehr wünschenswert.
Der Divisionskommandeur hat befohlen:
1. Im Falle des Abschusses und der Inbesitznahme eines Panzers von solch einem Typ ist sein Schutz vor Entfernung der Apparatur und der Ausrüstung zu organisieren.
2. Die Inbesitznahme ähnlicher Panzer ist unverzüglich dem Divisionsstab zu melden.
Gefechtsmaßnahmen:
1. Hervorragende Tarnung bei Tag wie bei Nacht.
2. Die Begrenztheit des Sichtfeldes und die unbedeutende Wirkungsweite des Geräts (300 – 800 m) berücksichtigend ist der Panzer näher herankommen zu lassen und sicher abzuschießen.
3. Flaschen mit Treibstoff sind weitergehend zu nutzen als mit einem Gemisch.
Es wird angenommen, dass ein Panzer, der mit einem ähnlichen Gerät ausgerüstet ist, sich äußerlich in nichts von einem üblichen Panzer des Typs „Panther“ unterscheidet.
Der jetzige Befehl ist dem gesamten Personalbestand bekannt zu machen.
Der Leiter des Stabes der 5. Gardeartilleriestoßdivision Gardeoberst Semenov
Der Leiter der Einsatzabteilung Gardeoberstleutnant Belousov

forttravel
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Re: InfraRed equipped Panthers-Combat reports?Story's?Discussion

Post by forttravel » 04 Feb 2018 10:56


radiosmersh
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Re: InfraRed equipped Panthers-Combat reports?Story's?Discussion

Post by radiosmersh » 01 Jun 2019 08:41

Original Soviet intelligence report:
00000074.jpg
"Information was received about the presence in the tank forces of the enemy of the Krauss-Maffe device for shooting at night from T-V "Panther" tanks and APCs. The devices have not yet been used at the frontline, but the night firing tests from tanks with the aid of these devices showed positive results.

The device is located in frontal part of the turret of the tank, where a conventional projector is mounted with the placement in it of a special filte transmitting only infrared rays that are invisible to the eye. A periscopic device is placed in the roof of the turret, through which the target is clearly visible, being illuminated by infrared rays, while the target can't seethe tank with the device.
There is an evidence that in the summer of '44 two battalions of "Panther" tank with night firing devices, capable of illuminating the target at the distance up to 400 meters, were formed. Each company of the "Panther" tanks battalion has 3-4APCs with night firing equipment, capable of illuminating the target at a distance of up to 900 meters.

Head of the Intelligence Department of the 1st Guards Army Headquarters,
Guards Colonel Ivanov
March 23, 1945"
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Red Hander
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Re: InfraRed equipped Panthers-Combat reports?Story's?Discussion

Post by Red Hander » 17 Apr 2020 14:30

Good afternoon,

The following is a second hand anecdote only but is posted in case it is of interest, or anyone knows anything about the matter.

I should stress that the source of the information has passed away (RIP) and I am therefore not able to ask him any questions.

Background:

I grew up in the UK and my neighbours were German. The chap (Mr R Crede) had, in WW2, been a tank driver in the German Army. He and his wife moved to the UK after the war, to work.

I was very interested in the war and wanted to ask Mr Crede about his wartime experiences. His wife (who has now also sadly passed) didn't like talking about the war, so I was surprised to have an opportunity to sit with Mr Crede and talk about his wartime experiences. This would have been in about 1993/94 - before the Internet was very common.

In terms of Mr Crede's bona fides, he was a respected scientist and very much a pillar of the community, so I take on trust all he said.

In our chat, Mr Crede explained where he'd been during Ww2. In short, this was - Poland, France, Balkans, Russia, University (in 1943, to complete his degree), then the Eastern Front until 1945. The IR Panther part was un-prompted: Mr Crede said that, in 1945, his unit was North of Berlin. He said that he was in a unit with IR equipped Panthers. I had heard of them, and seen photos. I knew nothing about IR tbh (I was about 20 at the time) but knew the kit was uncommon.

I asked Mr Crede what the IR kit was like to use. His reply (and the point of this over-long post!) was that the unit had ceased to use the equipment because something in Allied aircraft caused it not to work. He meant some form of interference. He didn't know what was causing the interference, but it coincided with Allied aircraft being overhead. I haven't read anything like that, about the German IR. However, it may be the case that test results, or reports from operational units, got lost or mislaid in the chaos of the end of war.

I understand from fellow - posters, on another forum that late war RAF aircraft carried some IR kit. It has also been suggested that the effects of explosions, or of decoys such as Window, could disrupt the IR frequency. Anyway, I know only what I was told and it is submitted here for your attention. Thank you.

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