The Tiger I and Tiger '503'

[Michael Kenny]

Just to restate a few points that I dont seem to have made too clear. The photo of the upside-down and burnt out(and therefore not repairable) 503 Tigers were taken by an official British Cameraman on the 25th r 26th of July.They were also filmed for Newsreel purposes. those 2 tanks were not recovered by the 27th as the Germans never re-took the ground.These 2 were total write-offs. If I show you a photo of a Tiger 213 of sPzAbt 503 stuck in a hole and then a photo taken after the war of the same Tank still in the same hole how was it recovered and put on a repair list? Did the Germans decide it wasn't worth repairing AND THEN PUT IT BACK IN THE SAME HOLE!. This tank is also a total loss. The Tiger IIs with Porsche turrets can only belong to 503. On 18/7/44 Tiger II no. 100 fell into a crater near Demouville couldn't be recovered and was blown up. The photo I posted of a Tiger II without a turret was photographed in a crater near Demouville by an Official Canadian War Photographer. In other views you can see the turret is detached and completely burnt out. This Tiger is again a total loss. The Porsche-turreted Tiger II without its gun was photographed near Demouville much later than July(for those in doubt look how the grass has grown around it) and therefore as it is still where it was destroyed it obviously(to any rational person) cannot have been recovered and placed on any repair list. It is Tiger II no. 101 of 503 knocked out on 18/7/44 and is a total loss. Tiger II no.122 shown in the photo with a Sherman beside it is a very well documented kill indeed. We have no less than 5 photos of it destroyed and the testimony of its gunner Hans-Joachim Thaysen telling how it was hit an abandonned. We also have the account of Lt.Gorman as to how he rammed it with his Sherman,took some of the crew prisoner and then he went and got a Firefly to put a few more rounds into it to make sure it was destroyed. If you saw the other photos of it you can see what a good job he did on it. This Tiger II is also a total loss and was not recovered. This therefore is a collection of photos showing beyond any doubt that 7,repeat 7, 503 Tigers as complete and un-recovered losses between 15/7/44 and 27/7/44. This shows that any record of only 4 total losses in that period is wrong. I would also point out that another Tiger II no.111 was also destroyed the same day(18/7/44) but no photos of it have surfaced yet. If anyone is interested you should read Schneiders TICI where he shows sPzAbt. lost a total of 13(that is right 13!) Tigers on this their darkest day in Normandy. This book was written by a man whos knowledge of Tigers and their destruction came from the real world and not some piece of paper in some dusty storeroom. A perfect example how reliance on research in only one area and without checking actual combat records can lead you astray. It has also been said that only 2 German Units were caught by in Heavy Bomber raids in Normandy, Lehr and 503. This again shows how far divorced from reality relying on paperwork alone can lead you. SS sPzAbt 101 was bombed on 15/6/44 and lost 4 Tigers as total write-offs( see page 257,TIC2. Also page 351, Agte's book on Wittmann)Their is also a very well known photo of a SS 101 Tiger completely wrecked by a direct hit by a bomb(Tiger no.311). This together with 2 photos of 503 Tigers know without any doubt to have been hit by bombs means we have absolute proof a minimum of 3 Tigers hit by bombs as opposed to the 'only one' quote by someone who obviously little or no knowledge of operations in Normandy. All the waffle about how changing fronts and reforming somehow got things muddled up has got me baffled and that hilarious suggestion that 503 fitters could spend their spare time working on the first total,the bridge Tiger, to get it back in service really is the funniest thing I have heard in years.

[Michael Kenny]

Please send details of where the Tiger was abandoned and when the crew went backand recovered it.

[Darrin]

Well MK is obviously still unable to admit that the tank that fell through a bridge and was not des but baddly damaged. It was recovered and all though he has hearsay evidence that it was unrepairable the ger records on two different days show all tanks accounted for in less than a week. This is on the 7th of july a few days before the bat entered combat and long before the ger reporting may be inaccurate. Yet he still seems to believe his veterns stamtment made years after the war as absoloute truth over what the archives show twice. It seems your ability to judge weather a tank was or wasn´t des even when the date, unit, tank and front are given to you is flawed.

If MK wants to believe this tank was des and that zetterling and the ger archives are wrong then he can do that. I´m putting myself with zetterling who is the expert on the ger amr esp in normandy and its archives. He believs the records that exist are accurate unless thier is other PROOF that they weren´t. I guess he doesn't put as much faith into photo interview studies which as MK shows are full of inaccuracies as actual ger records for proof. For example each ger tank that was des had to file a report with tank numbers and diagram. Its obvious that MK hasn't checked this source at all for any proof that the ger archives were wrong. Before you go around saying the ger archives were wrong it might be a good idea to look at them to determine that for yourself. Besides being obsesed with tigers MK has no credentials to judge what zetterling says about the ger archives. Except being a self declared tiger expert...


PS To show you again how familure zetterling is with records and what they may or may not mean. There is a ger report of div str losses at the end of normandy. Zetterling himself disbielieves this overally high losses for many divs here and has to take the long route reconstructing the losses from other archive sources. Getteing exactly what the ger finally corrected thier ground losses to for normandy. You and some of your idols are claerly not as familiar with ger archive reports as zetterling.

[Michael Kenny]

Still waiting for details of the Tiger abandoned and recovered later.

[Michael Kenny]

I took the trouble to read through Darrins previous effort to show all the 'amateurs' on this forum how he alone is the one infallible source of information on anything to do with German Units in Normandy. In the 4 pages of the 'German Tank Losses In Normandy' he managed to insult everyone who disagreed with him on any matter. As is usual for any such thread Darrin involves himself in EVERYONE had some matter they noticed he has misrepresented and all attempts to get him to recheck his 'source' (singular) was met with the implication that 'they' were mere amateurs and in no way could anything from his source be wrong in any way. People were accused of 'misreading' Zetterling because they didn't come to the same conclusion as Darrin and when finaly he was cornered and had to admit error he would excuse himself by saying the record was incomplete and then he would justify his original error by guessing what could have occured to make it happen. If the facts don't fit, invent new facts!. I would like to say that the course of study I involved myself in a few years ago,i.e. Eygptian Heiroglyphics was of immense help in decyphering some of Darrins musings although the exact meaning of some of his afforts did escape me. I think I will have to wait until I finish my next course on Linear B before I can be completely au-fait with everything he writes. I did note however that one of the basic planks of this argument he had with several people revolved around his theory that The Germans UNDER-REPORTED their tank losses in June/July. The exact opposite of what he says now!.( see his post on April 23rd 2002 at 12.14pm for a lengthy sentence where he expands upon this). In this thread Darrin tells us he doesn't look too closely at a reply he thinks is wrong(i.e. if it contradicts his view) This would go a long way to explain his failure to provide references to anyone who would like to check his source out. Anyway to get back on topic. In no way am I trying to convince Darrin of his errors. This has been tried on may occasions in the past and he simply will admit to nothing. He is right, end of discusion!. As one previous poster put it " It now seems to me that it is not really possible or profitable to discuss any matter in Darrins actual terms". Darrin of course takes this refusal to continue argueing the case with him as an addmission he was right all along. My interest was sparked by the initial claim that only 23 Tigers were total loses in Normandy by 27th of July. This figure I know to be wrong. My attempt to correct this error drew forth the usual insulting response recieved by anyone doubting Zetterlings claim. Since then I have supplied lots of reference materiel supporting the figure of more than 23 losses. This has been met with increasingly bizzare claims such as 'second hand heresay Veterans accounts by junior Officers' are not as good as 2 pieces of paper!. What comes across strongly is that Darrin is not very knowledgeable about the actual course of the fighting in Normandy. I doubt if he knows more than the mere rudiments of the campaign and his contemptious dismissal of Lt.von Rosen and the 503 Veterans Book shows him to be completely lacking in any understanding of the achievements of this 'junior' Officer in the Fighting around Hill 112. I don't intend to go back over ground I have covered at length in previous postings but all the evidence that Zetterlings claim of 23 Tigers destroyed by 27/7/44 and only 4 during Goodwood is wrong is there. The photographs PROVE 7 destroyed Tigers in one day and suggestions that the dates/times/tanks ect. are somehow suspect are not even deserving of a response. Suggestions that some of these tanks were recovered are the desperate last minute excuses of someone defending a position long ago exposed as hopeless. Whilst Darrin thrashes aroud trying to defend Zetterling he has to resort to claiming other Authors who have very well researched books with different conclusions to Zetterling are bad researchers and will now have to edit their books to comply with Zetterlings 'new' findings are the dreams of a man so deluded that he loses all claims to credibility. Darrins lack of understanding about the Authorship or standing of some of the books I used as references lead him to make some very bizzare statements and I paticularly liked it where he mused that if only Schneider had waited he could have used Zetterlings findings to make TIC I&II a definitive work!. A statement that says a lot about Darrins judgement(or lack of same). I will be happy that all my corrections will stay in this thread so as to prevent someone stumbling across it in the future and mistaking Darrins adoration of this book as cold hard fact. 7 photos of 6 knocked out Tigers or 2 pieces of paper, not much of a contest is it?. I won't even mention the bombing of 101 on 15/6/44 that Zetterling doesn't seem to know anything about!.

[Darrin]

Well at least I don´t think a stuart killed witmans tiger. Now I can see how a quyalified elictrician like MK with an interst (obsession) in TIGERS! makes such a great part time researcher.

[Michael Kenny]

Now we can test your knowledge of Normandy. As it seems you have been reading some of my old postings can you give me the benefit of your informed speculation as to what or who actualy hit and disabled Wittmann in Villers Bocage on June 13th 1944?. We know from Wittmanns own account that he believes he was hit by an A/T gun as he tried to leave the centre of the town. As the supporting Infantry of 7th A.D. hadn't yet reached the town that early on who do you think fired the round that stopped him?. I pointed out that the only known tanks in Villers at the right time were the surviving Stuarts from the Recce Troop dispersed in the towns side streets. I dont say one of them hit him but if I am pushed I would say they are the only ones who could have. Funny you should bring this up Darrin but on Thursday I went to London to see John Cloudsley-Thompson. You Darrin being an expert will need no telling who he is but for the benefit of the those not in the know he was the commander of the second RHQ Cromwell Wittmann destroyed as he entered Villers that fateful day. John had the distinction of being in Wittmanns sights, getting hit and living to tell the tale. I have been in touch with John and several other men who were in action that day and whilst to you 'foggy veterans stories of 60 years ago' have no standing to me they are absolute gold dust. Johns memory is remarkably detailed about some things and hazy about a lot more and whilst I dont pretend to know everything about what went on in Villers that day I do think I know a lot more than most people. I am also getting a look at some previously unknown photographs taken in Villers on the 13th by Bill Cotton(another Hero of the day) via his Son. Not bad for an Amateur part-time electrician researcher is it?. By the way you still haven't told me where this abandoned and recovered Tiger story you mentioned was printed. You won't forget again will you but I think if you look on your bookshelves in the Fairy-Tales section you stand a pretty good chance of finding it.