What Model T-26 is this?

Discussions on the vehicles used by the Axis forces. Hosted by Christian Ankerstjerne
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Harri
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Post by Harri » 18 Jan 2005 18:13

I have not seen such list and I don't either know the exact figure for 1941. But I think it could be about 15 - 20 Vickers/T-26 tanks and a few armoured cars and light amphibious tanks T-37/-38.

Were any Finnish T-28s destroyed? I think there were a total of seven examples (IIRC) but only a few were used at the same time except perhaps in 1943 and spring 1944 when there were two heavy tank companies. For example in the summer 1944 only two were in working condition.
Last edited by Harri on 08 Apr 2005 17:13, edited 1 time in total.

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JTV
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Post by JTV » 19 Jan 2005 08:39

Harri wrote:I have not seen such list and I don't either know the exact figure for 1941. But I think it could be about 15 - 20 Vickers/T-26 tanks and a few armoured cars and light amphibious tanks T-37/-38. I have sometimes

Were any Finnish T-28s destroyed? I think there were a total of seven examples (IIRC) but only a few were used at the same time except perhaps in 1943 and spring 1944 when there were two heavy tank companies. For example in the summer 1944 only two were in working condition.
Well, it is pretty much my list. :) The 1944 losses of T-26 and Komsomolets are mentioned in "Suomalaiset panssarivaunut 1918-1997" by Muikku and Purhonen. Stu 40 G, BT-42 and ISU-152 losses are pretty much in every possible Finnish book written about the subject. The Vickers 6 ton tanks lossed in Winter War are maybe best explained in "Suomalaiset Panssarivaunujoukot 1919 – 1969" by Kantakoski. The 6 Komsolets lost in Winter War are also mentioned in atleast "Suomalaiset panssarivaunut 1918-1997" by Muikku and Purhonen. The light armoured car lost in 1944 is mentioned in one of the Erkki Käkelä's books.

As far as I know all Finnish T-28 survived the war (two got modified as towing vehicles). What I remember both at least "Panssarisotaa" by Lehväslaiho (only non-fictional book he seems to have written) mentions one or two T-28 being getting hit by at-gun(s) or fieldgun(s), but while crew-members were lost the T-28 tanks remained operational. Later one of the T-28 tanks also was received hits (Soviet BT-series tanks managed hitting it) during attack to Karhumäki, but also it was repaired. It seems that T-28 had its good share of mechnical problems and there were not much spareparts available. The way how T-28 tanks were divided to two heavy tank companies might also give a false picture about the sitution. According TO&E strenght had in early part of 1944:
- 6./Ps.Pr (6th Company/Armour Brigade): 2 x KV-1 + 4 x T-28e
- 3./Ps.Pr (3rd Company/Armour Brigade): 3 x T-34/76 + 3 x T-28e

It also seems possible that none of the Platoon of "Christie-tanks" (BT-5 and BT-7) shortly used by the Finns in 1941 were not lost in battle either. None of the books seem to mention any losses besides serious technical problems, which made them all unoperational around 13th of September 1941.

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Juha Tompuri
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Post by Juha Tompuri » 19 Jan 2005 20:59

Lehväslaiho writes at the book JTV mentioned that two "Christies" carrying tank riders being destroyed by a possible enemy AT-gun 1941 at road between Tuulos and City of Aunus. Shortly after that at the same road one T-28 got a hit(s) from a possible Soviet "Pula-ajan panssariauto" (Depresion time armoured car) http://rkkaww2.armchairgeneral.com/gall ... SP45mm.JPG After that before City of Aunus, another our T-28 was seriously damaged/written off by a enemy (37mm) AA-gun.
Finnish T-26/Vickers's took part at the Shemenski-Pertjärvi couunter offensive April 1942, and couple of them were damaged/written off.

Regards, Juha

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JTV
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Post by JTV » 20 Jan 2005 08:18

Juha Tompuri wrote:Lehväslaiho writes at the book JTV mentioned that two "Christies" carrying tank riders being destroyed by a possible enemy AT-gun 1941 at road between Tuulos and City of Aunus. Shortly after that at the same road one T-28 got a hit(s) from a possible Soviet "Pula-ajan panssariauto" (Depresion time armoured car) http://rkkaww2.armchairgeneral.com/gall ... SP45mm.JPG After that before City of Aunus, another our T-28 was seriously damaged/written off by a enemy (37mm) AA-gun.
Finnish T-26/Vickers's took part at the Shemenski-Pertjärvi couunter offensive April 1942, and couple of them were damaged/written off.

Regards, Juha
I started again going through Lehväslaiho's "Panssarisotaa" and "Sotkalla sodassa" yesterday (I own both, but have not read them in year or two). Besides the ones mentioned already "Panssarisotaa" also seems to mention atleast two other occations with T-28 getting hit during offensive of 1941:
1. "Gun by the house" (likely at-gun?) firing AP/APHE round that killed MG-gunner of T-28 in his own turret and wounded driver
2. Gun (likely 37-mm aa-gun?) firing string of grenades into front armour of T-28. The hits atleast damaged track and front idler in this case (mobility kill). This could be the same case that you mention, but I didn't remember the "depression era armoured car" hitting T-28 also.

It seems that best way to get a good picture about losses of armour vehicles around 1941-1942 would be checking warjournals (sotapäiväkirja) of Panssaripataljoona of that time.

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Post by Tero » 20 Jan 2005 08:26

There is a picture in existence from a KO'd Finnish BT-7, I believe it is in the Finnish armour 1917-98 book (?) by Muikku.

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Juha Tompuri
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Post by Juha Tompuri » 20 Jan 2005 16:23

JTV wrote:
Juha Tompuri wrote: Shortly after that at the same road one T-28 got a hit(s) from a possible Soviet "Pula-ajan panssariauto" (Depresion time armoured car) http://rkkaww2.armchairgeneral.com/gall ... SP45mm.JPG After that before City of Aunus, another our T-28 was seriously damaged/written off by a enemy (37mm) AA-gun.
I started again going through Lehväslaiho's "Panssarisotaa" and "Sotkalla sodassa" yesterday (I own both, but have not read them in year or two). Besides the ones mentioned already "Panssarisotaa" also seems to mention atleast two other occations with T-28 getting hit during offensive of 1941:
1. "Gun by the house" (likely at-gun?) firing AP/APHE round that killed MG-gunner of T-28 in his own turret and wounded driver
2. Gun (likely 37-mm aa-gun?) firing string of grenades into front armour of T-28. The hits atleast damaged track and front idler in this case (mobility kill). This could be the same case that you mention, but I didn't remember the "depression era armoured car" hitting T-28 also.
JTV,
Your #1 case is the one that I first wrote (page 39 at "my" book) and your #2 case is the one I wrote second (page 40) :)
About page 39:
"The heavy tanks moved on wobbling
-What's there by the house?
-Stop the tank! Fire!
The gunner fired, but at the same moment there was a flash by the house, an AP grenade hit the tank between the other mg-cupola and driver. The mg-gunner died instantly and the driver collapsed to his seat. The explosion blinded the men at the turret for a moment and the commander felt how the splinters hit him. However he stayed at his position, and despite everything went black in his eyes, he pushed a grenade to the barrell.
-Let's kill it once and for all.
The gunner saw how he scored a hit. The other hit lit the truck by the house. The gun at the bed of the truck was silent. The commander loaded the gun one more time.
-Let the SOB have this, he said and, fell to the tank floor..." "
Regards, Juha

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JTV
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Post by JTV » 20 Jan 2005 17:25


[quote="Juha Tompuri Your #1 case is the one that I first wrote (page 39 at my book) and your #2 case is the one I wrote second (page 40) :)

About page 39:

"The heavy tanks moved on wobbling
-What's there by the house?
-Stop the tank! Fire!
The gunner fired, but at the same moment there was a flash by the house, an AP grenade hit the tank between the other mg-cupola and driver. The mg-gunner died instantly and the driver collapsed to his seat. The explosion blinded the men at the turret for a moment and the commander felt how the splinters hit him. However he stayed at his position, and despite everything went black in his eyes, he pushed a grenade to the barrell.
-Let's kill it once and for all.
The gunner saw how he scored a hit. The other hit lit the truck by the house. The gun at the bed of the truck was silent. The commander loaded the gun one more time.
-Let the SOB have this, he said and, fell to the tank floor..." "


Thanks. They are the same incidents indeed. With the "Christie-tanks" incident in Karhumäki it makes three cases of damaged Finnish T-28, but no final losses.

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JTV
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Post by JTV » 20 Jan 2005 17:29

Tero wrote:There is a picture in existence from a KO'd Finnish BT-7, I believe it is in the Finnish armour 1917-98 book (?) by Muikku.
Thanks, I didn't remember that one. So atleast one BT-7 and one BT-5 or BT-7 lost in 1941.

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Post by finnjaeger » 08 Apr 2005 12:56

Ok, this is coming from someone who doesn´t have knowledge on finnish tanks, so have mercy on my lack of knowledge.
My question is, was there any finnish design/built tanks used during continuation war, or were they all just captured from russians and in best cases just modified for finnish use?
I remember the BT-42 would have been some kind of modified model and built in Finland but i could be wrong. Also i remember reading that it had a totally useless armor, so weak that shots from rifles would give sparkles inside making the crew uncomfortable and that the turret would have been usefull only in indirect fire, not having any penetration abilities agains other tanks. For example, in the book from the battle of Viipuri (don´t remember the name), the BT-42 didn´t even try fire on the T34 which it faced on the street, but it just tried to drive away and got destroyed. If this was finnish "made" why was it used when it was outclassed from the beginnig? Also where there any attempts of making finnish design medium or heavy tanks?

best regards, TK

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Post by Kissa » 08 Apr 2005 14:52

finnjaeger wrote:Ok, this is coming from someone who doesn´t have knowledge on finnish tanks, so have mercy on my lack of knowledge.
My question is, was there any finnish design/built tanks used during continuation war, or were they all just captured from russians and in best cases just modified for finnish use?
No tanks were built in Finland. All were captured from USSR, bought from England (Vickers 6tons) or got from Germany (Sturmis and Pzkpfw IVs). The Germans used lots of captured French tanks in Lappland.

I could be wrong, but I think the BT-42:s were modified BT-tanks.

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Post by Mikko H. » 09 Apr 2005 20:44

I could be wrong, but I think the BT-42:s were modified BT-tanks.
Precisely. They mated a Finnish-manufactured turret with the British 4.5" (114mm) howitzer in a BT hull.

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JTV
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Post by JTV » 12 Apr 2005 09:55

Mikko H. wrote:
I could be wrong, but I think the BT-42:s were modified BT-tanks.
Precisely. They mated a Finnish-manufactured turret with the British 4.5" (114mm) howitzer in a BT hull.
I just wanted to add some information about BT-42: The turret was manufactured in "Valtion Tykkitehdas" (State Artillery Factory) according Army specifications, which concentrated reusing as much as existing material as possible. So the equipment used for aiming (pointing) the howitzer originated from the equipment of captured Soviet 45-mm tank guns. The sights used with the howitzer originated from 76 K/02 field guns. The hulls used in BT-42 were all from captured BT-7 m 1937.

Only armoured vehicles designed and/or manufactured in Finland before or during WW2 were one or two Sisu armoured cars, which were used by the Police. One such vehicle is nowadays in Parola Armour Museum.

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Re:

Post by SVaaka » 28 May 2008 00:00

Only armoured vehicles designed and/or manufactured in Finland before or during WW2 were one or two Sisu armoured cars, which were used by the Police. One such vehicle is nowadays in Parola Armour Museum.[/quote]

Only one Sisu armouredcar was manufacured in 1938. This one was nearly lost - but happened so that in 1983 I was visiting at Raasi Training ground near Pori and saw it there and wondered what is was cause I thought that I knew all possible armoured vehicles used in Finland and this one I had never seen. Well I send a letter to Parola Museum and so it was saved.

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