Vehicle identity requests

Discussions on the vehicles used by the Axis forces. Hosted by Christian Ankerstjerne
protze
Member
Posts: 259
Joined: 26 Sep 2006 10:37
Location: Holland

Re: Vehicle identity requests

Postby protze » 10 Jul 2008 05:35

Hi all,

Wo knows the identity of this for me unknown Italian truck?
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

barbarossa28
Member
Posts: 428
Joined: 20 Oct 2003 19:58
Location: Germany

Re: Vehicle identity requests

Postby barbarossa28 » 10 Jul 2008 09:32

Hello friends,

Bert, are you sure about the Ford? For me it has the divided windshild and the radiator mask of the American model. Therefore it was not manufactured in Germany...

The Phänomen Granit is indeed a Phänomen Granit 30 56/58 PS. But there were other Phönomen Granit 30. The Phänomen Granit 30 55 PS looked similar to the Phänomen Granit 25 H and the Phänomen Granit 30 60 PS looked similar to the Phänomen Granit 1500 S. The bottom photo on side 136 of Frank's Lastkraftwagen der Wehrmacht shows a Phänomen Granit 30 60PS ambulance falsely identified as Phänomen Granit 1500 S.

Francy your GMC is a formerly Belgian GMX T16B 4x4 truck of the year of construction 1938. It had a special Belgian Army driver's cab.

Regards, Holger
Last edited by barbarossa28 on 10 Jul 2008 20:54, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
FRANCY RITTER
Member
Posts: 3020
Joined: 02 Dec 2004 18:12
Location: PARMA City of European Food Safety Authority ITALY

Re: Vehicle identity requests

Postby FRANCY RITTER » 10 Jul 2008 13:11

barbarossa28 wrote:
Francy your GMC is a formerly Belgian GMX T16B 4x4 truck of the year of construction 1938. It had a special Belgian Army driver's cab.

Regards, Holger


Thank you Holger... :wink:

User avatar
Sander D
Member
Posts: 1581
Joined: 14 Apr 2003 15:09
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Vehicle identity requests

Postby Sander D » 10 Jul 2008 22:54

Hi wolfsangel

regarding my last post, and the pic of the SdKfz 251 with wheels....

there are a few anomalies with the picture that Sander posted , that dont conform to any model of the SdKfz 251....

1) the front vision ports are too close together - look at any picture of a SdKfz 251 - no variant has the vision ports so close.

2) there are no side vision ports on the vehicle - (models A & B had 3 each side, models C has 1 vision port , and D has just a slit, without a block), but this one has none

3) the vertical (cooling ?) grille below the numberplate doesnt conform to any SdKfz 251 variant, nor does the square opening at the front of the bonnet. (see drawing below)

4) the weld or join seam roughly above where the exhaust muffler would sit does not appear on any SdKfz 251 variant, and the entire side plate with the letter A on it appears to be the wrong shape for any SdKfz 251 variant. Also though the nose looks like an early SdKfz 251 there are also no engine cooling flaps on this side plate - only the late war model D had no ventilation flaps...

5) it has three evenly spaced tarpaulin hoops - I've only seen pictures with 4 evenly spaced hoops, not a big deal I know, but it is another inconsistency with this vehicle.



From the evident anomalies with this whole vehicle, I'm thinking its been pieced together from part or parts of an SdKfz 251, with a redesigned front end, or front half ,maybe built from spare armour plating, to resemble a Sdkfz 251 ? possibly only rear end is original SdKfz 251 ? maybe not even that ? the mudguards appear consistent with an early model A/B model 251, but thats the only consistent thing, other than that it has some late D model features (no side ventilation flaps), and some unique features - front vision ports close together, and the front ventilation grille and opening

does anyone other ideas, opinions or pics that might throw some more light on this vehicle ?

Its definitely not a Laffly W15T(gepanzert) - I googled it and found the Laffly W15T(gepanzert) is an entirely different looking (though very interesting) vehicle. Below is link to a picture of a Laffly W15T



Like bill said ,it could be build on a krupp truck.

Concearning the sdkfz 251 body look,

The frond vision ports are indeed closer to gether,i think they meaby used some part of a 251,other wise those handy germans build it all out of scratch.


Never seen anny other picture of this armoured vehicle .
I only know the two pictures ,the one i posted and the one you used in your post .

Regards

Sander

Wolfsangel
Member
Posts: 56
Joined: 29 Mar 2008 01:36
Location: Australia

Re: Vehicle identity requests

Postby Wolfsangel » 11 Jul 2008 04:41

Hi Sander

thanks for your reply

I found another site that has the same picture as you found, and it describes it as "wood" and a "mock up" SdKfz 251 model B built on a truck chassis. If this is correct it explains all the anomalies I listed - because its not really a SdKfz 251 at all, just a mock up built to look like a 251

Why would anyone build a wooden mock up 251 ?

I can think of two reasons;

1) for training purposes - as had occurred with wooden mock up T34 & KV1, of which there are many different photos around.

2) for deception purposes - having wooden mock up 251s would allow them to be moved around to indicate presence of armoured units in places where there were none, these would look perfectly real on aerial photographs

My feeling is that both the pictures have all or mostly wooden bodies, with a few metal components such as rear door hinges, and mudguards, which are obviously metal, as one is dented. The pic below is a little larger than the one Sander posted, you can see the seam line on the front panel, and behind the bonnet doors, and the vision port covers are way too thin, as well as being too close together - see link below.

The link does say its on a Krupp L2H light chassis. I'm kind of disappointed as I'd prefer it to have been an actual armoured 251 body on the truck chassis, rather than a mock up. Still its a very good mock up, again highlighting how clever the germans were at impovising :D Not so sure about trying a scratch build now that its not simply a case of converting a 251 body to fit a light truck chassis - I'd have to scratch build all the panels, without enough photos or plans :roll:

http://www.geocities.com/motorcity/pit/ ... 1-wood.htm

cheers
Wolfsangel

User avatar
gagarin
Member
Posts: 37
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 15:13
Location: Belgium

Re: Vehicle identity requests

Postby gagarin » 11 Jul 2008 10:09

Considering that the Germans used almost every truck they came across (french, british, italian, american, russian)
to move around troops, equipment and supplies ...
I find it hard to believe they would build and use trucks with a wooden mock-up solely for diversionary purposes ...

I'd rather think this truck, these trucks, were built for training purposes ( as a cheap substitute for a real half-track, which could be of better use on the frontline) or to evaluate the general lay-out of the fighting compartment of a new version of the half-track troop carrier (sdkfz 251 or maybe a maultier or possibly the SWS) or, and I think this is more propable, as prototypes of a wheeled troop carrier, which never went into production ... but that would not prevent the Germans from using these prototypes for training purposes ...

SIS 5
Member
Posts: 3431
Joined: 22 Nov 2006 17:27
Location: Germany

Re: Vehicle identity requests

Postby SIS 5 » 11 Jul 2008 13:54

Hi Holger,

back to the small Ford truck. I´m rather sure, that it is a Ford 1ton. You are right with the divided windshild and the radiator mask (typical American) and that it is not produced in Germany, but I have written it in my reply. I don´t know, where it is produced, in the USA or elsewhere. It´s possible, too, that this truck was assembled by Ford´s Amsterdam plants.

Now to the Phänomen Granit. Thank You very much for correcting my wrong ID of the Phänomen Granit 1500 ambulance.
I believed in the ID of Frank and I´ve found a commercial with such an ambulance as a resin model (I´ll post it down). Now I can correct my wrong ID with Your help. Thanks again.

Regards

Bert
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Wolfsangel
Member
Posts: 56
Joined: 29 Mar 2008 01:36
Location: Australia

Re: Vehicle identity requests

Postby Wolfsangel » 12 Jul 2008 01:41

gagarin wrote:Considering that the Germans used almost every truck they came across (french, british, italian, american, russian)
to move around troops, equipment and supplies ...
I find it hard to believe they would build and use trucks with a wooden mock-up solely for diversionary purposes ...

I'd rather think this truck, these trucks, were built for training purposes ( as a cheap substitute for a real half-track, which could be of better use on the frontline) or to evaluate the general lay-out of the fighting compartment of a new version of the half-track troop carrier (sdkfz 251 or maybe a maultier or possibly the SWS) or, and I think this is more propable, as prototypes of a wheeled troop carrier, which never went into production ... but that would not prevent the Germans from using these prototypes for training purposes ...


Hi Gagarin

A problem for the germans was having huge territory & coastline to defend in western & southern europe (including Denmark & Norway) and insufficient forces available to properly defend it all in 1943 & 1944, which is why I raised the possibility of deception.

Given the mock up is of a model B, it does tend to indicate this was made early in the war (model B was produced from 1939 to late 1940). The model C (made 1940- 1943) would have been an easier mock up, with the flat front nose panel , and the model D (made 1943 - 1945) even easier again, with the straight sides and straight rear doors, so your suggestion that it was a trial mock up (before the later simplified model 251s were in production) to see if the design would be feasible seems highly likely.

It possibly was a model contsructed to consider putting a 251 body onto a truck chassis. This makes sense as the Krupp chassis in the Protze form provided no real protection for the occupants. An armoured body on the Protze chassis would be more useful, particularly given the Protze was used early in the war to tow anti tank guns & carry the gun crew, which really is a combat role, with an unarmoured mover. The other photo is a rear shot only, but is presumabley also a 251 on a Krupp L2H truck chassis. Its not unreasonable that more than one model would be built. Given the german shortage of motorised vehicles its evident they were issued out, at least one of them to a unit in Denmark.

We can only theorise, but your suggestion seems logical. But still would be great to know a bit more about this vehicle/s...

cheers
Wolfsangel

Bill Murray
Member
Posts: 6336
Joined: 08 Jan 2004 23:22
Location: Georgia USA

Re: Vehicle identity requests

Postby Bill Murray » 13 Jul 2008 01:52

Hallo all:

As posted elsewhere tonight, I have just arrived home after two days of 10 hours driving after attending my franchising company's annual Conference. I am tired to say the least.

The Ford, in my opinion, is an American sourced 1 tonner that was supplied to several European countries as a chassis/cab and then fitted with a local body. As Bert says, it was never produced in Germany in this form.

I also agree with Holger on the Phaenomen and it is a quite rare vehicle not often seen in either civilian or military service.

I will leave the Krupp based armoured truck question to others, but I do believe I was correct as to the chassis that was used.

Bill

User avatar
Csaba Becze
Member
Posts: 636
Joined: 27 May 2002 10:44
Location: Hungary

Re: Vehicle identity requests

Postby Csaba Becze » 13 Jul 2008 09:33

Gentlemen,

it is a towed equipment (field kitchen?)

Could anyone identify it please?

TIA
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

SIS 5
Member
Posts: 3431
Joined: 22 Nov 2006 17:27
Location: Germany

Re: Vehicle identity requests

Postby SIS 5 » 13 Jul 2008 11:54

Hi Csaba,

for me it is not a field kitchen, but a special apparatus for warming up the engines of aircrafts in the hard winter in Russia or in the north of Europe.

Regards

Bert

User avatar
Sander D
Member
Posts: 1581
Joined: 14 Apr 2003 15:09
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Vehicle identity requests

Postby Sander D » 13 Jul 2008 13:42

Hi Wolfsangel

The autor mentioned in his book ,concearning this vehicle.
That this vehicle appears to be made out of wood (wooden mock-up),so he’s not sure a bout that.
Looking at my picture, i would say that the rear doors are made of steel.
Like you said ,the mudgards (maybe from a sdkfz 251 aufs A ,see picture),and front vision ports look also made out of.
Looking at these vehicles i would say that it's totaly build out of steel.
It’s like Gagarin said ,it’s hard to believe that they build these wooden mock-up's specialy for training purpose,they can also usesdkfz 251's ????.

Picture of the sdkfz 251 aufs A mudgard:
Image


Those germans can build anything if they have the time .

viewtopic.php?f=47&t=95136&hilit=styer

And there are some nice pictures in this long beute umbauwagen threat.

viewtopic.php?f=47&t=80610&hilit=field+conversion

Regards

Sander

.

Bill Murray
Member
Posts: 6336
Joined: 08 Jan 2004 23:22
Location: Georgia USA

Re: Vehicle identity requests

Postby Bill Murray » 13 Jul 2008 17:51

Hi Csaba/Bert:

Regarding the trailer, even though I have a couple of good books on German trailers, I was unable to match Csaba's photo exactly.

A couple of thoughts might be as Bert says or maybe also something I have seen elsewhere, a unit used to also heat tents used by Medical Personnel and possibly even some sort of decontamination unit.

As always, I will continue to look for a better answer.

Bill

User avatar
Sander D
Member
Posts: 1581
Joined: 14 Apr 2003 15:09
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Vehicle identity requests

Postby Sander D » 13 Jul 2008 19:18

.

Hi Csaba/Bert and Bill

It's just like Bert said,it a air heater for aircraft engines.
The aircraft engines are warmed up befor they get started.

Here's a picture of it from Airfield equipment -waffen arsenal .

Image

Regards

Sander

.

Bill Murray
Member
Posts: 6336
Joined: 08 Jan 2004 23:22
Location: Georgia USA

Re: Vehicle identity requests

Postby Bill Murray » 13 Jul 2008 20:05

Thank you as always, Sander.

I have that book too, but forgot to look at it.
Bill


Return to “The Ron Klages Panzer & other vehicles Section”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: CommonCrawl [Bot]