Vehicle identity requests

Discussions on the vehicles used by the Axis forces. Hosted by Christian Ankerstjerne
SIS 5
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Location: Germany

Re: Vehicle identity requests

Post by SIS 5 » 29 Sep 2009 14:53

Hi Sean N,

thank You very much for the help.

Regards

Bert

Sean N
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Re: Vehicle identity requests

Post by Sean N » 29 Sep 2009 16:46

No problem, Bert.

Actually, looking at it again, I think it might be the canvas door, just stretched quite tight. May also be standard headlights, the size might just be a bit of an illusion.

Sean

Befehl227
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Re: Vehicle identity requests

Post by Befehl227 » 01 Oct 2009 22:07

Bill Murray wrote:Hi Befehl:

1. Ford BB with V8 motor
2. No idea as yet, need to look further.
3. Opel Kadett 1938-40
4. Matford 917 WS

Regards, Bill
Thank you, Bill!

Befehl227
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Location: Germany

Re: Vehicle identity requests

Post by Befehl227 » 01 Oct 2009 22:21

barbarossa28 wrote:Hello Befehl.

No. 2 could be a Stoewer of the D series which was made from 1920 to 1928. The flat radiator mask indicates a late model.

Regards, Holger.
Herzlichen Dank, Holger! Here is a better scan of the radiator mask. I'm a little bit confused because the steering wheel is on the right side!? :?

Image

Image

fireindi64
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Location: Northern-Germany, Hamburg

Re: Vehicle identity requests

Post by fireindi64 » 02 Oct 2009 05:29

Befehl227 wrote:
barbarossa28 wrote:Hello Befehl.

No. 2 could be a Stoewer of the D series which was made from 1920 to 1928. The flat radiator mask indicates a late model.

Regards, Holger.
Herzlichen Dank, Holger! Here is a better scan of the radiator mask. I'm a little bit confused because the steering wheel is on the right side!? :?

Image

Image
Hello Stefan

only a little notice, no result.
I am same confused like you.There must be a time period in early Germany , wehre it was not cleared if the steering weel is right or left. My example is a Magirus. its a post war pic. I think the year of production is 1920-1925
Aspecialy in this threat i get no chance :cry: Here is to much know-how :wink:

best regards
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Alanmccoubrey
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Re: Vehicle identity requests

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 02 Oct 2009 15:18

SIS5, I think that your ambulance is a CMP rather than an Austin. If it were a Katie we would be able to see the bonnet (hood) from that angle and we can't.
Alan

SIS 5
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Location: Germany

Re: Vehicle identity requests

Post by SIS 5 » 03 Oct 2009 08:55

Hi Alan,

thank You for Your meaning, an interesting point of view. In the "Historic military vehicles directory" by Bart Vanderveen there is shown a CMP ambulance of Ford (Ford C 29QF/C 30) with a Cab Nos. 13, but it doesn´t look like the ambulance on the pic. Maybe it´s the Cab Nos. 12, but I haven´t a pic.

Regards

Bert

Bill Murray
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Re: Vehicle identity requests

Post by Bill Murray » 03 Oct 2009 12:18

I don't know if this link will work, but in general if it does it would support the Austin K2 choice.

The design of the rear door with the small window, the placement and design of the fuel tank, the side curtain on the passenger door and the unique step into the cab all say Austin, not CMP which was my first thought also. Also the sort of box behind the passenger compartment speaks to an Austin.

The only odd bit are the headlamps and I cannot now explain that.
Bill

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl= ... ie%3DUTF-8

Alanmccoubrey
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Re: Vehicle identity requests

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 03 Oct 2009 19:35

Bill, It certainly looks like aKaty body but as we can't see the long bonnet (and we should be able to) the chassis isn't the Austin, Bedford or Humber which it was normally stuck on.
Alan

Sean N
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Re: Vehicle identity requests

Post by Sean N » 03 Oct 2009 21:40

I don't know, Alan, I'm still inclined to stick with Austin - it's 4x2, everything fits and all the dimensions are about right, whereas everything looks wrong for a CMP. I take your point about the nose, and that threw me at the start, but I think you can see the end of the nose, just not well because the photo's overexposed and burnt out in that area.

Bill, thinking about the headlights, if it is a K2Y I think it's carrying the bigger lights that some of the civvy K2 trucks had - I've seen them on K2Ys said to be early models in period photos.

Bill Murray
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Location: Georgia USA

Re: Vehicle identity requests

Post by Bill Murray » 04 Oct 2009 00:11

Evening (My time) folks:

Seems we are like a dog chewing on his/her favourite bone here.

Further ID tips that I consider important in identifying this ambulance of Bert's.

The front mudguards on an Austin are much more "rounded" than those of a CMP and reach a bit further down, some several inches/millimeters.

The wheel equipment of a CMP shows wheels with roughly the same center configuration, ie they both look the same if you view the wheels straight on. On the Austin, the rear hubs show a rather large center hub and a much smaller center hub on the front wheels and this to my eyes is seen on Bert's photo.

To my eyes, again, the front windscreen seems to be standing straight up as opposed to the slanted windscreen typical of CMP 3 tonners which is what I am basing my comparison on.

The "splashguards" on the rear wheels on Bert's photo are also more typical of an Austin. A bit more rounded and a bit longer than on a CMP.

Regarding the headlamp question, even my pasted photos show a small headlamp on the Austin that is not quite the same as Bert's photo. I have no photos of CMP vehicles of this class with a supplementary headlamp.

Hope I am continuing to let all of us enjoy this question.

Bill

barbarossa28
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Location: Germany

Re: Vehicle identity requests

Post by barbarossa28 » 04 Oct 2009 11:48

Hello folks.

I also think that this vehicle is not a CMP ambulance. The front fenders are totally differenr to the vehicle shown on the photo of Bert.
Have in mind that these ambulance box bodies were standardised and were used on Austin, Bedford and Morris chassis.
Some details don't fit to the Austin in my opinion. And also not to the military Bedford variants. Possibly it is a later Morris variant. But I'm not realy an expert about British ambulances. An earlier Morris ambulance can be found on my site:

http://www.kfzderwehrmacht.de/Homepage_ ... 11_30.html

Regards, Holger.

Sean N
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Re: Vehicle identity requests

Post by Sean N » 04 Oct 2009 22:18

Hi Holger,

I don't think it's Morris; it looks to me to have a banjo axle rather than the split case axle typical of Morris. I'm sure it's not Bedford.

To borrow Bill's metaphor, I've been worrying at this old bone all day! Took the liberty of resampling Bert's image & had a play with the black / white levels in that bonnet area:
Unknownambulance.jpg
The more I look at it the more I think it's an Austin - which probably means I'm completely wrong! Got a couple more comparison photos, but they'll keep - I'll leave you guys to chew at it some more. Goodnight all.

Sean
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Last edited by Sean N on 05 Oct 2009 17:01, edited 1 time in total.

Bill Murray
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Location: Georgia USA

Re: Vehicle identity requests

Post by Bill Murray » 04 Oct 2009 22:31

Hi Sean:

I am not looking for a food fight here, just to get to a satisfactory answer for all. In that case, thanks for the support.

Regarding the Morris, I cannot find a pic of a Morris with the fuel tank where we see it here, but tons of Austin pics where that seems to be the standard placement.

One thing that has not been discussed is that the pic appears to be taken in North Africa and it would be interesting to know which British vehicles were sent there versus which were not. We already know that CMPs were fairly abundent, but I do not have good information on the strictly British types that went there. That may narrow down the search a bit.

For what it is worth, as Holger said, the body is by Mann Egerton as I see it and I agree it was mounted on many chassis which can always complicate the issue of properly identifying a vehicle from a rather poor photo.
Bill

Sean N
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Re: Vehicle identity requests

Post by Sean N » 05 Oct 2009 18:34

Hi Bill and all,
Bill Murray wrote:...I am not looking for a food fight here...
No, absolutely, and I hope I haven't given that impression either. I think now that other suggestions have been put up it's something to get your teeth into (more bone metaphors) and work out collectively. Plus British vehicles being more my area, it's one I can worry at, unlike a lot of the European trucks!

It's clearly a Mann Egerton / RAMC standard body, but these were fitted to a variety of vehicles, as you and others have said. If it were a CMP built on a chassis & cowl (No. 41 or 42 cab) it would have a straight screen as the artillery tractors had (but I don't think it is).

For me, the ID hints to the chassis are these. It's definitely a 4 x 2; we can see the front axle beam and the front hub casing is very narrow. It appears to be a banjo type rear axle which for me eliminates Morris.

The front wings look Austin or Bedford (very rounded with a cut away at the front corner). To my eyes part of a bullnose bonnet is visible, though not long enough and too rounded to be a Bedford, and the headlights are the right relative height for Austin rather than Bedford (assuming they're original).

The fuel tank, as you say, is suggestive of Austin rather than Morris or Bedford, though I have very few photos of the other two. I also think other features suggest Austin. The front bumper is full width (Bedford being slightly narrower); the front hubs appear to be heavily ribbed on the area inside the nave of the wheel; the differential case seems to be a very plain round 'cannon ball' casting rather than the distinctive Bedford shape or Morris split case; the chassis rails are shallow at the rear with towing eyes attached to the end.

I don't think the headlights are an issue as they do look like the K2 truck headlights, and I've found this photo on IMCDB (http://imcdb.org/images/173/853.jpg), said to be from the documentary World at War, of what appears to be a Katie with the same large headlights:

Image

I don't know what else in North Africa might have been fitted with that body, so I can't be much help that way, but I'm still inclined to say early Austin.

Holger, what details did you think weren't Austin?

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