Sd.Kfz. 251 on the battlefields

Discussions on the vehicles used by the Axis forces. Hosted by Christian Ankerstjerne
yantaylor
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Re: Sd.Kfz. 251 on the battlefields

Post by yantaylor » 11 Nov 2019 22:02

Thanks Alan.

yantaylor
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Re: Sd.Kfz. 251 on the battlefields

Post by yantaylor » 12 Nov 2019 21:32

Alanmccoubrey wrote:
11 Nov 2019 10:30
Yan, they used the 250/3 and 250/5 as command/radio vehicles and don't forget the 250/9 was combined with the radio vehicles in the "Spah. Kp. c".
Alan, did they use the 250/9 at headquarters level in the recon battalion Infantry company? I thought that these AFVs were kept in their own company.

Here is what I am working with, with many thanks to Christoph Widmann-Awender for his fab kstn site.

Panzer Reconnaissance Company (armored)
Company HQ
2 x Motorcycles
2 x Kettenkrads
4 x seater le. Park gl [is this a kubelwagon?]
1 x Sd. Kfz. 250/1 [munitions]
2 x Sd. Kfz. 250/3 [radio]

Mortar Platoon
2 x 1 x Sd. Kfz. 250/1
2 x 1 x Sd. Kfz. 250/7

3 x Platoons each;
Platoon HQ
1 x Sd. Kfz. 250/1
1 x Sd. Kfz. 250/8
3 x Sections each;
2 x Sd. Kfz. 250/1


Yan.

Alanmccoubrey
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Re: Sd.Kfz. 251 on the battlefields

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 12 Nov 2019 21:46

Yan, I think you have misunderstood my post. The "Spah. Kp. c" was mixed with 16 x 250/9 and 9 x 20/5 or 250/3 so I didn't mean to suggest that the "armoured car" was used in HQ units.
Another point to note is that there weren't that many 250/8 made and then only from the summer of 1944 so most recce battalions had the 251/9 in their place in the Heavy Company, I don't know about the Recce Companies.
Alan

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Re: Sd.Kfz. 251 on the battlefields

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 13 Nov 2019 08:54

Yan, while looking at Martin Block's old issue listing for the 250 I noticed that he gives the KStN 113(gp) with a date of 1.3.42 and it has three 250/10 rather than 250/8, this makes me wonder if Christoph has merely made a typo on his 1.11.41-1.11.43 charts.

https://web.archive.org/web/20130827180 ... 703#160703
Alan

yantaylor
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Re: Sd.Kfz. 251 on the battlefields

Post by yantaylor » 13 Nov 2019 15:39

Hi Alan, is this the KStN 113(gp) you are referring to? http://www.wwiidaybyday.com/kstn/kstn1113gp1mar42.htm

Yan

Max104740
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Re: Sd.Kfz. 251 on the battlefields

Post by Max104740 » 13 Nov 2019 18:53

Hallo to everybody,
I checked the original KStN 1113 gp of march 42 and november 43 (both are available on Sturmpanzer site) and I can confirm that the 42 version has in each platoon HQ a 250/1 and 250/10 with a 3,7 cm AT gun whereas the 43 version has a 250/1 and a 250/8 with a short 7,5 cm. Another problem is that in WW2 Day by Day is mentioned a November 41- November 43 KStN, I think it is a typo, I have not found a1113 gp KStN with issue date of November 41, nor in Tessin list in Niehorster site neither in other lists I saw. I know that this is not enough and that a November 41 KStN may exist anyway, but in this case I would bet that it has not 250/8 in its organization.
Regards
Max

Alanmccoubrey
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Re: Sd.Kfz. 251 on the battlefields

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 13 Nov 2019 21:03

Yan, yes that's it.
Alan

yantaylor
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Re: Sd.Kfz. 251 on the battlefields

Post by yantaylor » 30 Nov 2019 14:58

Hi all;

Did the three light armoured cars [SDKFZ 221 – 222 – 223] ever serve together at platoon level? I have seen 221s and 223s in a light platoon circa 1941 and 221s and what looks like 222s circa 1938.
I thought a platoon may contain 223s in the HQ section with three sections containing one 221 and two 222s.

Ian

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tigre
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Re: Sd.Kfz. 251 on the battlefields

Post by tigre » 08 Apr 2020 02:33

Hello to all :D; more...............................

SPW in action.

Source: https://yadi.sk/a/Bb7bjzOh3WLckF

Cheers. Raúl M 8-).
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dgfred
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Re: Sd.Kfz. 251 on the battlefields

Post by dgfred » 08 Apr 2020 14:33

Good ones. Thanks!

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tigre
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Re: Sd.Kfz. 251 on the battlefields

Post by tigre » 05 Jul 2020 19:22

Hello to all :D; more...............................

Kharkov 1943.

Source: https://www.abebooks.co.uk/first-editio ... 2092622/bd

Cheers. Raúl M 8-).
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PanzerModeler
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Re: Sd.Kfz. 251 on the battlefields

Post by PanzerModeler » 05 Jul 2020 23:27

Interesting thread, with some interesting reads.

About the use of the 250/251 in combat, I would have to expect that doctrine aside, how it was actually used would have depended more upon the situation.

I imagine that it would compare to the role of the M113 during the cold war?

Get the troops as close to the action as possible. Provide them shelter from enemy artillery fire as much as can possibly be done. Avoid contact with enemy tanks and anti-tank weapons, but whenever possible, provide them support with your mounted weapons.

Considering that the vehicle mounted weapons could have had access to a rather large ammunition supply, and potentially have a very stable firing position when not moving. Couldn't the halftracks have hung back a thousand yards or more behind their infantry and still provided valuable support by suppressing areas with MG34/42 fire?

I expect that as with the M113, versions of the 250/251 equipped with heavier weapons would be expected to be a bit more daring in how they were employed. M113s fitted with the TOW system, for example, were expected to find good positions to sneak off a shot or two before they would 'pop smoke and boogie' to somewhere/anywhere else.

yantaylor
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Re: Sd.Kfz. 251 on the battlefields

Post by yantaylor » 10 Jul 2020 20:42

I wonder if German ever contemplated putting all their Panzergrenadier battalions on tracks, on tracks I mean everything. If you look at the Infantry battalions, they have anti-tanks guns, 81mm and 120mm mortars, 75mm and 150mm Infantry guns and maybe some sort of air defense too, all towed.

Now the PG Battalions also had the same weapons and most of them were mounted on tracks, well except for 120mm mortars and anti-tank guns.

So did the high command ever lay plans to give their half-track PG battalions say Hetzers. As far as I know they didn’t have a vehicle in mind which could carry a 120mm mortar, similar to the 81mm in a half-track. Did they every add Hetzers to armoured Infantry battalions, in an effort to give them a mobile anti-tank guns?

Ian

Alanmccoubrey
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Re: Sd.Kfz. 251 on the battlefields

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 11 Jul 2020 11:07

Ian, of course they would have liked to do that but apart from Panzer Lehr Division whose Panzergrenadiers were entirely "armoured" the best they managed was a couple of divisions with two armoured battalions. This was because they couldn't produce enough vehicles to meet their demands.
Alan

yantaylor
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Re: Sd.Kfz. 251 on the battlefields

Post by yantaylor » 11 Jul 2020 15:28

Hi Alan, yes I know it was a pretty fanciful question by me, as you say this was not achievable to the Germans. I thinks what I was trying to say was from a vehicle point of view, having only two types of carriage to maintain would be practical because they could utilize the 38t chassis for 15 IG, PaK 40 and even 2cm AA, as all these vehicles were in production with Grille, Hetzer and 38t AA tanks. The other chassis would be the Sd. Kfz 251, which also was used as a platform for 2cm AA, PaK 35/36, 8cm mortar and 7.5cm IG, so the only weapon that we don’t have a SP Mount for is the 12cm mortar, which would make it a full house.

I remember reading a similar project being thought of by the US Army in the shape of combat teams, I think they came in three sizes, light, medium and heavy. I thing the M24 light tank provided the chassis for the light team, not sure if the M4 did the same for the medium and the M26 for the heavy. I think each team had a mix of tanks, SP Artillery but I don’t know if any managed to see action.

Ian

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