German equipment names

Discussions on the vehicles used by the Axis forces. Hosted by Christian Ankerstjerne
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Karl234
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#16

Post by Karl234 » 29 Apr 2005, 15:06

cbo wrote: * Just for fun, lets include some of the others:
Gr.W
R.Pz.B
Nb.W
s.W.G
s.Wu.R
le. F.K
L.G
Geb.H
le.F.H
K.
s. F.H.
Mrs.
Gr.W = Granat Werfer
Nb.W = Nebelwerfer
le.F.H. = leichte Feld-Haubitze
s.F.H. = schwere Feld-Haubitze
le.F.K = leichte Feld-Kanone
Geb.H = Gebirgs-Haubitze
Mrs. = Mörser
s.W.G. = schwere Wurf-Granate

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Christian Ankerstjerne
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#17

Post by Christian Ankerstjerne » 29 Apr 2005, 15:31

Claus
The problems in using hand-written (or even type-written) documents (unless those documents are official orders for a name change), are prone to clerical errors (such as the PiK, which is ammusing for reasons only known to Claus and other Danes ;)). The Reichministerium für Rüstung und Kriegsproduction did not to my kowledge have the authorative to make new names for vehicles. In their production reports, they are also using incorrect names (such as Königstiger).

Christian


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tom!
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#18

Post by tom! » 29 Apr 2005, 18:51

Hi.
Karl234 wrote:
cbo wrote: * Just for fun, lets include some of the others:
Gr.W
R.Pz.B
Nb.W
s.W.G
s.Wu.R
le. F.K
L.G
Geb.H
le.F.H
K.
s. F.H.
Mrs.
Gr.W = Granat Werfer
Nb.W = Nebelwerfer
le.F.H. = leichte Feld-Haubitze
s.F.H. = schwere Feld-Haubitze
le.F.K = leichte Feld-Kanone
Geb.H = Gebirgs-Haubitze
Mrs. = Mörser
s.W.G. = schwere Wurf-Granate

R.Pz.B. = Raketenpanzerbüchse
s.Wu.R = schwerer Wurfrahmen
L.G. = Leichtgeschütz
K. = Kanone

:)

Yours

tom! :wink:

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sdkfz182
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#19

Post by sdkfz182 » 29 Apr 2005, 22:45

Christian,

Could you show me were they use Königstiger in their production report, I would be very glad to see this, or from which source do you have this ?

Regards, Benno

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#20

Post by Christian Ankerstjerne » 29 Apr 2005, 23:44

It is in all their production reports, from 1944-11 to 1945-03 (I don't know about the previous ones).

Christian

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cbo
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#21

Post by cbo » 01 May 2005, 11:10

Christian Ankerstjerne wrote:Claus
The problems in using hand-written (or even type-written) documents (unless those documents are official orders for a name change), are prone to clerical errors (such as the PiK, which is ammusing for reasons only known to Claus and other Danes ;)). The Reichministerium für Rüstung und Kriegsproduction did not to my kowledge have the authorative to make new names for vehicles. In their production reports, they are also using incorrect names (such as Königstiger).
Who, then, in you point of view, are the authoritative sources for "correct" German vehicle names and gun abbreviations?

In many of his works, T. Jentz lists what he calls official designations and these often conflict. As an example, you may take his book "Germanys Tiger Tanks: VK 45.02 to Tiger II" p. 16:

"The following listing of official designations is presented as an aid for keeping track of the names as they evolved during this design project."

This list includes designations from WaPrüf, In 6, Reichsministerium für Bewaffnung und Munition (which is not the same as the Reichsministerium für Rüstung und Kriegsproduktion!) as well as Henschel - and includes "Königstiger" as well. So it would seem the Jentz' definition for an official designation is something that has been used by an involved organisation as opposed to what the troops made up for themselves or what allied intelligence or post-war historians came up with.

Your understanding of what is "official" seem to differ from that of Jentz?

And why are only "official" documents relating to name changes free of clerical errors?

Claus B

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#22

Post by Christian Ankerstjerne » 01 May 2005, 17:47

As I see it, an official name is only such if it has been determined that such a name should be used. This can either be determined as a direct order (i.e. 'x vehicle will ehnceforth be known as y'), or de facto through the publication of an official document for mass distribution, where we must assume that the contents and spelling has been proof-read. Both of these cases are de facto free of clerical errors, because any clerical error (if not later rectrified) must be considered approved as the official stance. I know about Jentz's list of vehicle names, but I don't agree that all of them would have the authorative to issue either direct orders or de facto orders of a name change.
As I see it, only In 6 and Wa.Prüf. could be responsible for official designations. Henschel's names would be acceptable as official designations within the Henschel plant, but not outside the plant. I'm not sure about the Reichministerium, as I don't know in which contents it has been used (but Jentz seems to acknowledge in his other books, that it was never officially named 'Königstiger', so I will assume that the document can't be significant.

Christian

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#23

Post by Ome_Joop » 01 May 2005, 20:05

Christian Ankerstjerne wrote:Claus
(such as the PiK, which is ammusing for reasons only known to Claus and other Danes ;)).
Christian,

PiK....i think that is ammusing for the Dutch as well.....maybe it means the same thing for the Danes?

Interesting topic, but it seems that the germans not only made it hard for history writers but for them selfs as well!

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#24

Post by Sbf.Koch » 01 May 2005, 21:27

Ome_Joop wrote:
Christian Ankerstjerne wrote:Claus
(such as the PiK, which is ammusing for reasons only known to Claus and other Danes ;)).
Christian,

PiK....i think that is ammusing for the Dutch as well.....maybe it means the same thing for the Danes?

Interesting topic, but it seems that the germans not only made it hard for history writers but for them selfs as well!
hehe... PiK... Come on Joop, how old are we :wink:

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cbo
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#25

Post by cbo » 02 May 2005, 12:22

Christian Ankerstjerne wrote: As I see it, only In 6 and Wa.Prüf. could be responsible for official designations. Henschel's names would be acceptable as official designations within the Henschel plant, but not outside the plant. I'm not sure about the Reichministerium, as I don't know in which contents it has been used (but Jentz seems to acknowledge in his other books, that it was never officially named 'Königstiger', so I will assume that the document can't be significant.
If that is so, it seems to me that Jentz is contradicting himself. "Königstiger" is listed in his 1997 book as an "official designation". He actually writes:

"To set the record straight, the names found in the original documents have been used in the text and listed in the introductory sections of chapters 4 and 5. As can be seen from these lists, there was no single official name... The original German names for the Panzers and component parts are shown throughout the text in bold print."

"Königstiger" appears in the list in chapter 5 in bold. So how can Jentz say it is not an "official name"?
Christian Ankerstjerne wrote: As I see it, an official name is only such if it has been determined that such a name should be used. This can either be determined as a direct order (i.e. 'x vehicle will ehnceforth be known as y'), or de facto through the publication of an official document for mass distribution, where we must assume that the contents and spelling has been proof-read. Both of these cases are de facto free of clerical errors, because any clerical error (if not later rectrified) must be considered approved as the official stance. I know about Jentz's list of vehicle names, but I don't agree that all of them would have the authorative to issue either direct orders or de facto orders of a name change.
So, as I read your post, official names can come from only two sources:

1. An In6 or WaPrüf document stating specifically that vehicle X is to be known by name Y.
2. Any form of mass-publication (manuals for example) issued by In6 or WaPrüf.

Which appears a bit odd, as the manuals for tanks seems to have been issued mostly by the General-Inspekteur der Panzertruppe.

With regards to the never ending argument over the names Sturmgeschütz and Panzerjäger, Guderian as Chef der Generalstab des Heeres wrote a letter in August 1944 asking the "Chef H. Rüst u. BdE" to use the names listed in the letter. Seems to fullfull your first condition except that it is not from In6 or WaPrüf. So are the names given here to be considered "official"?

FWIW, I think it is somewhat futile to chase down "official" names. I think Jentz has taken the right approach in the above mentioned book (as well as in others by him and Spielberger) which is to define which names has been used, over time, for any particular vehicle by the German army and other involved organisations. That is an aid to the researcher and serves to weed out other names attributed by other powers, historians and baffled enemy intelligence organisations. But trying to raise some of these names to an artificial official status by attributing more "name-giving power" to one agency over another is rather pointless, as I see it.

Claus B

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#26

Post by Christian Ankerstjerne » 03 May 2005, 09:06

I think you've misunderstood me. Wa.Prüf. of In.6 would just be two of the possible sources. Manuals (official, at least) issued by any agency would be authorative. Orders from other sources, e.g orders directly from Hitler (not that I can think of any right now), would be authorative as well.

Christian

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cbo
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#27

Post by cbo » 03 May 2005, 09:25

Christian Ankerstjerne wrote: I think you've misunderstood me. Wa.Prüf. of In.6 would just be two of the possible sources.
But Henschel and the various Reichministerien not?
Christian Ankerstjerne wrote:Manuals (official, at least) issued by any agency would be authorative. Orders from other sources, e.g orders directly from Hitler (not that I can think of any right now), would be authorative as well.
And when they disagree..?

Like the Jagdtigers gun being "12,8cm Pz.JägK.80" in D1884 (that would be a manual of sorts, wouldn't it?) and "12,8cm PaK80 L/55" in a paper from Chef. H. Rüst, both from November 1944*.
Or Chef H. Rüst/Stab Rüst III calling the Ferdinand a Sturmgeschütz and a Panzerjäger at the same time**.

Claus B

*Spielberger: "Schwere Jagdpanzer" p. 148
**Spielberger: "Schwere Jagdpanzer" p. 72

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#28

Post by Christian Ankerstjerne » 03 May 2005, 11:26

Henschel is a company, and not a gouvernment institution, and as far as I know, the Reichministerium's names comes from reports, also containing a number of other names (which doesn't focus on the name, so it wouldn't be of important to correct if wrong, as long as the meaning is clear).

Obviously, there will be conflicting names, especially since several organizations would be able to issue names at the same time. A Dienstvorschrift would be a manual, and thus the name would be official, however the paper or letter you mention might not be (especially if it is an internal memo or letter). Are there copies of the papers in the book you mention (or is it part of the appendix at the end), so we can see the document type?

Christian

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tom!
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#29

Post by tom! » 18 May 2005, 21:43

Hi.
tom! wrote:
In the journal "Waffen Revue" Karl Pawlas showed some Wehrmacht documents regarding this change in an article about the 3,7 cm Pak (can´t say which number exactly, I´m not able to have a lok before mid-May as im far from home at the moment. But it must be a number arround 75)
Found it.
K. Pawlas had a large archive of german military documents. His informations were found reliable.

source: Waffen Revue No. 73, page 57

Sorry, no copies of the original documents but the following informations:

1.
Allgemeine Heeresmitteilung, 07.07.1936:

431. Umbenennung der M.W und Tak

....

4. Die 3,7-cm-Tak (T.) wird in 3,7 cm Panzerabwehrkanone (3,7-cm-Pak.) umbenannt, das dazugehörende Geschoss erhält die Bezeichnung "3,7-cm-Panzergranate" (3.7-cm-Pzgr.).

Die Abkürzungen "Tak" und "T." sind nicht mehr anzuwenden.

...

O.K.H, 01.07.1936. GenSt. d. H. 2. Abt./AIIA/In 2 (V). HM
The weapon was renamed from "3,7 cm Tankabwehrkanone" to "3,7 cm Panzerabwehrkanone" (not 35/36 or anything like that).


2.
Allgemeine Heeresmitteilung, ?.04.1941:

419. Umbenennung von Pak.

1. Die Panzerjägerkanone erhält ab sofort die Bezeichnung "Panzerjägerkanone", Abkürzung wie bisher "Pak".

2. Zur Unterscheidung der verschiedenartigen Ausstattungen der Panzerjägereinheiten werden folgende Benennungen eingeführt:
leichte Panzerjägerkanone (Pak) bis einschl. 3,7 cm, mittl. Panzerjägerkanone (Pak) über 3,7 cm bis 7,4 cm, schwere Panzerjägerkanone (Pak) ab 7,5 cm.

O.K.H. (Ch II Rüst u. BdE), 24.04.1941 - 7089/41 - AHA Ib (I).


In late April 1941 the meaning of Pak was changed from "Panzerabwehrkanone" to "Panzerjägerkanone".

Yours

tom! :wink:

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#30

Post by Christian Ankerstjerne » 19 May 2005, 00:22

Thanks, Tom

Christian

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