German Fully Tracked Vehicles on the Western Front

[spannermann]

Hello Ron,
Excellent data, gives me much to think about and many thanks,
spannermann

[spannermann]

Hello Ron,

Have thought much, here is another question, hope your willing to answer. Of the units you identified in the West and Italy that received these vehicles, have you any data on who was first and who was last to get these vehicles, I am particulary interested which of these units, for example, got the last 40 or so that were manufactured ?.

Also does your data cover what chassis numbers these might be ?

many thanks again, Spannermann

[Ron Klages]

Spannermann,

Here are allocation dates. I have no chassis numbers.

Regards,

Ron Klages

Day,Month.Year,Quantity,Unit,comments

?, November, 1943, 1, Waffenamt, prototype vehicle
10, February, 1944, 12, 2. Pz.Div.,
10, February, 1944, 12, Pz. Lehr Div.,
17, February, 1944, 12, 21. Pz. Div.,
17, February, 1944, 12, 90. Pz.Gren.Div.,
24, February, 1944, 12, 26. Pz.Div.,
2, March, 1944, 12, 10. SS Pz.Div., transferred to 2.SS Pz.Div May44
9, March, 1944, 12, 9. SS Pz.Div., transferred to 1.SS Pz.Div May44
16, March, 1944, 12, 29. Pz.Gren.Div.,
23, March, 1944, 12, Pz.Div. "HG",
12, April, 1944, 12, 12. SS Pz.Div.,
19, June, 1944, 12, 17. SS Pz.Gren.Div.,
8, September, 1944, 8, 17. SS Pz.Gren.Div., originally sent to 9.SS Pz.Div. but picked up by 17. SS Pz.Gren.Div.


Note: the 20 vehicles with the 17. SS Pz.Gren.Div. were initially sent as "Materialreserve" with 3.[PzFlak]/Pz.Ers. U Ausb. Abt. 204 in Schwetzingen, Germany in April 1944.

[spannermann]

Hi Ron,
Many thanks again for that excellent data much appreciated. Some coincidence here, this weekend I will be staying in Schwetzingen (ref Pz.Erz. U Ausb . Abt. 204 in your note above), in a hotel just a few yards from where that famous photo shows a ko'd Jagdtiger with its barrel through a shop window.

small world, again many thanks Spannermann

[spannermann]

Hello Ron,
Forgive some more questions, First, have you any idea where the one vehicle that the Waffenampt were issed with would have actually gone to ?.

Second, are you aware of any refurbishment occuring to any battle damaged Flak 38(t) back at the BMM site in Prague, if such happened there would most likely have been another "issue" of the vehicle to some unit or other ?

Just to clarify the second question, there are many pictures of battle worn Pz 38(t) being refurbished at BMM, so the facilities and the expectation of such activities were there.

many thanks again Spannermann

[Ron Klages]

Spannermann,

I really have no info on either question although I suspect that is any were rebuilt and re-issued they would have gone to training units rather thn front line units. I believe this since by this time the Flak Pz. IVs were standard issue.

Ron

[spannermann]

Hello Ron,
Ok, thanks anyway, its been good info, cheers Spannermann,

[Martin Block]

Some additional infos and corrections to what Ron has writen above:

The original delivery records for Flakpz. 38 kept by the Gen.Insp.d.Pz.Tr. show that all 140 production vehicles initially went to the Pz.Ers.u.Ausb.Abt. 204 in Schwetzingen:
12 shipped on 21.12.1943
36 shipped on 30.12.1943
44 shipped on 23.1.1944
34 shipped on 18.2.1944
14 shipped on 18.3.1944
The shipment of 12 on 21.12.1943 is actually listed as intended for Pz.Lehr-Div., so this apparently was the first division ment to be equipped with them.
However, all were concentrated in Schwetzingen first and after completion of training the Pz.Fla-Züge were sent from there to the combat units.
On 15.9.1944 the 3.(Pz.Fla)/Pz.Ers.u.Ausb.Abt. 204 filed the following list of shipment dates for the Pz.Fla-Züge (in some cases different from what has been written above):

12 shipped to Pz.Lehr-Div. on 10.2.1944
12 shipped to 2. Pz.Div. on 10.2.1944
12 shipped to 21. Pz.Div. on 16.2.1944 (Gen.Insp.d.Pz.Tr. later noted 10.2.1944)
12 shipped to 90.Pz.Gren.Div. on 19.2.1944
12 shipped to 26. Pz.Div. on 24.2.1944
12 shipped to 29.Pz.Gren.Div. on 26.2.1944
12 shipped to 10. SS-Pz.Div. on 20.3.1944 [transfer to 2. SS-Pz.Div. orderd 29.4./1.5.1944]
12 shipped to 9. SS-Pz.Div. on 21.3.1944 [transfer to 1. SS-Pz.Div. ordered 29.4./1.5.1944]
12 shipped to Pz.Div. HG on 26.3.1944
12 shipped to 12. SS-Pz.Div. on 12.4.1944
12 shipped to 17. SS-Pz.Gren.Div. on 19.6.1944 (only 4 reached the division, the others were lost on the way in the Le Mans area in early Aug. 1944)

That left 8 in reserve which were finally shipped as 'Nachschub West' by the Gen.Insp.d.Pz.Tr. intended for 10. (not 9.) SS-Pz.Div. on 7.9.1944 but then issued to 17. SS-Pz.Gren.Div. on 18.9.1944 instead.

Flakpz. 38 were not only employed in the West and in Italy but also on the Eastern Front!

1.) Both the 9. and 10. SS-Pz.Div. show 12 Flakpz. 38 on hand in their status reports dated 1.4. resp. 5.4.1944. At that time both divisions were heading east for the Tarnopol area respectively had already arrived there with elements. Currently I have no reason to believe that the Flakpanzers didn't make it there also and fired a few rounds at Soviet planes and ground targets. The order to hand over the tanks to 1. and 2. SS-Pz.Div. arrived only one month later.

2.) When the Pz.Div. HG left Italy it did NOT leave behind its Flakpz. 38! In the status report dated 5.12.1944 one can still find 6 of them attached to the Stab Fsch.Pz.Rgt. HG. Some time before 15.1.1945 they were handed over to the 4.(s.)/Korps-Sturm-Btl. Fsch.Pz.Korps HG.
3 of them were still present by 15.3.1945. Can't tell when or where the last one was lost.


Martin Block

[Ron Klages]

Hi Martin,

As usual and always another post of excellent information, this time on the FlakPanzer 38.

I do have one question that perhaps you might be able to clear up. It is in regards to the Flakpanzer 38s that were first issued to 9.SS and 10. SS then transferred to 1.SS and 2.SS. From your information you believe that these Flakpanzers went east with the division prior to their transfer. I have always doubted this based on the timing and locations and reasonability. Here is my logic.

Both the 9.SS and 10.SS had their Flakpanzer 38s shipped to them on 20 and 21 March 1944. Near the end of March both units were located in France, 9.SS entrained at railway stations in Nimes and 10.SS in Bernay-Loisieux railway stations . The trains of both divisions began arriving in Lemberg on 2 April 1944. There both divisions fought in the areas to the east and south of Lemburg—Brody-Tarnopol-Buczacz. Then on 12 June both divisions were rapidly entrained in Lemberg for transport to France to assist in the Normandy area. From your data you state that the Flakpanzer 38s were transferred to the 1.SS and 2. SS Divisions between 29 April and 1 May or only 28 to 30 days after they had arrived in the east.

Now I believe that the 1.SS PD left Lemberg for France on 17 April 1944 and the 2.SS PD left Halicz, just south of Lemberg on 20 April 1944 also for France. Therefore since LSSAH and Reich had already left the region then were the FlakPanzer 38s shipped separately all the way back to France or were they taken by LSSAH and Reich when they left and it took the paper work two weeks to reflect this?

I have always believed that the Flakpanzer 38s for the 9.SS and 10.SS stayed in France with the I. battalion of SSPR 9 and SSPR 10 which had remained behind at Mailley de Camp in France being trained and outfitted with Panthers for the first time. In fact when the 9. SS returned to fight in Normandy, I./SSPR 9 did rejoin the division with its Panthers but I./SSPR 10 was still not equipped with Panthers so the division fought in Normandy without the I. Battalion. I believe I./SSPR 10 had received 10 Panthers but these were turned over to Panzer Lehr Division [I./PR 6] and it took till after Normandy for 10.SS to receive its allocation of Panthers. Therefore the Flakpanzer 38s of the 9.SS and 10.SS did not reach the Eastern Front because of the above reasoning.

Martin, I would appreciate your thoughts regarding the above. In dealing with the tracking of German resources in the war I am always amazed at how difficult and unpredictable the facts can be.

I was surprised by the fact that HG did not transfer their Flakpanzer 38s even though most other equipment had been left behind. In that case HG would be a unit that did fight in the east with Flakpanzer 38s.

Looking forward to your comments.
All the best,

Ron Klages

[Martin Block]

Hello Ron,

The Flakpz.Züge in both divisions were attached to the Pz.Rgt.Stab, NOT to the Panther-Abteilung. This is also confirmed by cross-checking with the reports filed by I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 9 respectively I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 in April and May 1944. Both Flakpz.Züge were reported as being present with their divisions in the status reports dated 1.4.1944 (9. SS) and 5.4.1944 (10. SS). So wherever the divisions were at the time of the reports the Flakpz.Züge had already managed to join them timely enough to be reported in the on hand strength. Therefore I currently have little reason to believe they did not reach the Eastern Front.
I should perhaps have made it clearer that the dates I gave are only the dates the transfer orders were issued. The actual transfer happened later. A note on the back of the June 1944 status report of 10. SS for instance stated that the Pz.Fla-Zug had left the division on 17.5.1944 ("am 17.5.1944 aus dem Divisionsverband ausgeschieden"). My guess is the Pz.Fla-Zug of 9. SS left about the same time.

On Panthers: The I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 had received 4 Panthers in March and 6 in July 1944 while in Mailly le Camp. All 10 were reported still present by 1.8.1944. 5 of them were then taken away as 'Nachschub West' during the following week but I do not know what unit received them. The other 5 apparently even made it back to Germany because when the Gen.Insp.d.Pz.Tr. shipped the next 10 to I./SS 10 now in Grafenwöhr at the end of September he remarked '5 vorhanden', i.e. 5 on hand.

If you're interested in more of my views on the story of I./SS 10 and it's Panthers please check in here:
http://forum.panzer-archiv.de/viewtopic ... 1&start=45

Martin Block

P.S.: Additional cross-check with detailed vehicle listings in reports 'Stand der Aufstellung' dated 1.5. und 15.5.1944 by both the 1. and the 2. SS-Pz.Div. also revealed not a single Flakpz. 38 present on those dates.

[Jan-Hendrik]

Farewell , dear Ron ....


Jan-Hendrik

[Kelvin]

Did Flakpanzer 38 also called Gepard ?

[Alanmccoubrey]

Kelvin, No the FlakPz 38 was never called the Gepard .

[STURMBOCK]

the "Gepard" is only use in the modern Bundeswehr,the polish version is nammed Loara on T 72 chassis.
But follow this link I never heard this nickname as official designation.
http://ww2armor.jexiste.fr/Files/Axis/A ... Gepard.htm
http://www.wallpaperpimper.com/wallpape ... 111395.htm

[Piotr Mikołajski]

The "Gepard" is only use in the modern Bundeswehr,the polish version is nammed Loara on T 72 chassis.

I know this is old thread but I wanted to correct this info. PZA Loara isn't Polish version of Flakpanzer Gepard. Both uses the same 35 mm Oerlikon KDA guns but other systems (radar etc.) are different and Loara was developed in Poland. PZA Loara is build on modified T-72M1 chassis with elements from PT-91 chassis.