Captured German military records online: "germandocsinrussia.org"

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Mori
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Re: Captured German military records online: "germandocsinrussia.org"

Post by Mori » 14 Apr 2018 15:37

I've looked into the newly released 12474-Korps fund more deeply. I've checked about half of it, up to XXIII.AK.

I'm surprised that the vast majority of the entries are about Poland 1939 or France 1940, and that items on the German-USSR war are relatively few (one noticeable exception being XXIII.AK).

It makes me wonder...
... what warehouse did the Russians get so much "pre-war" material from?
... how could this storage facility only pile up documents up to mid-41

I saw that many of the documents are damaged by fire. It may be that the place got on fire and that only one area - where the 1938-40 boxes happened to be - could be saved. But that's pure hypothesis.

Another possibility is that the 1941-45 Korps archives are somewhere else and not in the 12474 fund.

Your thoughts?
Last edited by Mori on 14 Apr 2018 17:33, edited 1 time in total.

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Piet Duits
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Re: Captured German military records online: "germandocsinrussia.org"

Post by Piet Duits » 14 Apr 2018 15:55

I sure wish you are correct. And that those missing boxes will surface too once. In our lifetime.

histan
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Re: Captured German military records online: "germandocsinrussia.org"

Post by histan » 14 Apr 2018 16:31

Hi Mori

The fire was in the German archive and seems to have had a major impact on documents relating to the Polish Campaign - many documents on the NARA rolls show the same fire damage. Documents from 1941 onward seem to have not been

With regard to the Russian campaign, they seem to have published material not contained on the NARA rolls - such as KTB for V AK and L AK and a report on XXXXIX AK in the Crimea. These provide valuable additional material.

They do, however, seem obsessed with maps!

Regards

John
Last edited by histan on 14 Apr 2018 16:35, edited 1 time in total.

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Piet Duits
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Re: Captured German military records online: "germandocsinrussia.org"

Post by Piet Duits » 14 Apr 2018 16:34

Yes indeed, and Ic material. In other words, things about themselves...

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Re: Captured German military records online: "germandocsinrussia.org"

Post by Reigo2 » 14 Apr 2018 20:03

The 12474-Korps contains also material for example from Kurland 1944-1945. Therefore it seems likely that everything related to Corps are included in 12474 and there is no another series containing such materials.

The description for 12474 says about the origin of the materials: Ein Großteil der Akten aus diesem Findbuch stammt aus den Trümmern des Heeresarchivs in Potsdam, wo sie nach Kriegsende von sowjetischen Einheiten geborgen und schließlich nach Moskau geschafft wurden.

My hypothesis is that the Heer material in fund 500 is composed largely from two sources: the remains of Potsdam archive and Courland capitulation. Unfortunately for my research (Estonia February 1944-September 1944) the units which capitulated in Courland in 1945 probably sent their pre October 1944 materials earlier to the archives where they were mostly destroied.

Mori
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Re: Captured German military records online: "germandocsinrussia.org"

Post by Mori » 15 Apr 2018 11:53

Reigo2 wrote:My hypothesis is that the Heer material in fund 500 is composed largely from two sources: the remains of Potsdam archive and Courland capitulation. Unfortunately for my research (Estonia February 1944-September 1944) the units which capitulated in Courland in 1945 probably sent their pre October 1944 materials earlier to the archives where they were mostly destroied.
Yes, I reach the same conclusion:
- Postdam archive with material almost exclusively on pre-Barbarossa
- whatever was captured on the field at the end of the war : Courland, some stuff about the units in Norway, etc. This part you can't find at NARA or BAMA.

There is very little for the time in between.

I'll see whether I have time to quantify that a bit more.

Mori
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Re: Captured German military records online: "germandocsinrussia.org"

Post by Mori » 15 Apr 2018 22:23

Just dedicated a little time comparing the 12474 files with the T314 from NARA. It seems the series are more complementary than redundant:

- NARA hasn't copied much of the pre-war documents. So the 12474 documents up to summer 1939 are not in NARA (e.g., the pre-war Kriegspiel in items 20 and 21)

- NARA often has full, detailed KTB. It seems you hardly ever get this in 12474, except for some units like 5.AK, 23.AK or 26.AK. The 1939-1940 data from 12474 look therefore different from what the NARA KTBs.
(Unfortunately, I cannot be 100% certain as I lack the corresponding NARA rolls for the items I checked - I'm not much into the Poland campaign - so this comes from reading the NARA catalog and getting a sense of what the material is from title and number of pages).

- Many of the entries in 12474 are single maps. Probably more than 150 entries (ca. 25%). Even if they are at NARA, getting color copies is way better than black & white microfilms. That said, isolated maps are of very limited value. Maps only become interesting for the scholar when one gets series covering several days or several weeks. 12474 offers just this for 5.AK (items 94-103), 10.AK (174-180), 23.AK (distributed between 327 and 384), 26.AK (400-437) and maybe more.

- and like was said before, some of the late war documents are truly original

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Piet Duits
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Re: Captured German military records online: "germandocsinrussia.org"

Post by Piet Duits » 15 Apr 2018 22:34

The NARA does not have the KTB Nr. 27-31 from the XXIII. Armeekorps.
I am a very happy man with these new items.

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Re: Captured German military records online: "germandocsinrussia.org"

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 16 Apr 2018 07:16

Indeed!

Jan-Hendrik

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Re: Captured German military records online: "germandocsinrussia.org"

Post by a.j.m. » 01 Jun 2018 18:03

Funds 12472 and 12487 appeared there.

Adler Heinz
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Re: Captured German military records online: "germandocsinrussia.org"

Post by Adler Heinz » 01 Jun 2018 19:33

It was a good and useful archive, until they took the decision to put a big watermark on the pages. Totally an unnecessary choice, especially for the photos. Now is useless.

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Re: Captured German military records online: "germandocsinrussia.org"

Post by AMVAS » 01 Jun 2018 20:22

Adler Heinz wrote:It was a good and useful archive, until they took the decision to put a big watermark on the pages. Totally an unnecessary choice, especially for the photos. Now is useless.
Because they are paranoidal for copying of their materials by somebody. When they are asked "Why you are not providing documents at least with minor size watermarks?" they reply - "come to archive, and pay for copying"

Adler Heinz
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Re: Captured German military records online: "germandocsinrussia.org"

Post by Adler Heinz » 01 Jun 2018 21:05

AMVAS wrote:
Adler Heinz wrote:It was a good and useful archive, until they took the decision to put a big watermark on the pages. Totally an unnecessary choice, especially for the photos. Now is useless.
Because they are paranoidal for copying of their materials by somebody. When they are asked "Why you are not providing documents at least with minor size watermarks?" they reply - "come to archive, and pay for copying"
Yes, i totally agree for a little watermark low in the left or to the right. This new Fond 12472 have 2 albums of photos, but's they are ruined by that ugly big watermark. It's best to create various rolls and sell via that site, for a right price (20€ - 25$ until a max of 40€). Excluded some folders, the remnants have all the watermark. Seen this way, they look like samples for a site that sells copies of documents of an archives

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AMVAS
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Re: Captured German military records online: "germandocsinrussia.org"

Post by AMVAS » 01 Jun 2018 22:50

Adler Heinz wrote: Yes, i totally agree for a little watermark low in the left or to the right. This new Fond 12472 have 2 albums of photos, but's they are ruined by that ugly big watermark. It's best to create various rolls and sell via that site, for a right price (20€ - 25$ until a max of 40€). Excluded some folders, the remnants have all the watermark. Seen this way, they look like samples for a site that sells copies of documents of an archives
They are limited with obligations to be free service and can't sell anything as far as I can guess.

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Re: Captured German military records online: "germandocsinrussia.org"

Post by MarkN » 24 Jun 2018 20:51

Adler Heinz wrote:It was a good and useful archive, until they took the decision to put a big watermark on the pages. Totally an unnecessary choice, especially for the photos. Now is useless.
No it is not useless.

It is a great resource for researchers and those interested in learning about the subject. All without having to leave the comfort of your own living room/office. And all for free. And yet you complain. :roll:

The watermarks are only a problem for people trying to pass on (sell) the documents as their own finds - but now can't.

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