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dabbydo
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Post by dabbydo » 08 Sep 2006 23:42

I was going to post my photo on the forum, but I found the same picture on another site, along with a new photo.
Fliegerhorst Memmingerberg was built in 1935-36 and used by KG/51. This photo is from 18 April, 1945, at 1100 hours.
The airfield was used by the Luftwaffe until 2004, when conversion to civilian use was started. Jabog 34 operated ther until the end.(Along with a few Amis) :D

http://www.gaf-sammler.de/html/jabog/jabog-chronik.htm

David

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Matzos
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Post by Matzos » 15 Sep 2006 14:26

JonS wrote:
Matzos wrote:... if an item is public record then the public should have the right to see that record.

Not quite. If an item is public record in country x, then the people of counry x should have the right to see that record.

Foreigners have no rights whatsoever in this regard.


Yes you are right.

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Matzos
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Post by Matzos » 15 Sep 2006 14:43

dabbydo wrote:Is there a good site or book on aerial photos from WW2 in Europe? TARA and NA aren't much help, as you already know. I'm looking for post strike pictures, etc, with comments from the analysts that processed the intel?

And Andreas, I have an old S-Staffel patch I brought home as a souvenir but I'll let you have it if you want..... :roll:

Thanks,

David


Below are some of the books I have.

Eyes of the RAF - the complete history of photo recce in the RAF

Eyes for the Phoenix - Allied Aerial Photo-reconnaissance Operations in South-East Asia 1942-1945

Allied Photo Reconnaisance of World War Two

Photo reconnaissance by Andrew J. Brookes

Mosquito Photo-Reconnaissance Units of World War 2 (Osprey Combat Aircraft 13)

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dabbydo
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Post by dabbydo » 15 Sep 2006 21:49

Thank you, Matzos!

If you checked out the link I posted for Memmingen, it shows the photo that I was going to post on the forum. It is the only photo I have ever seen taken from the air during the war. I don't know where he got the print, but I got it from the photo section at Memmingen during the 1980's while I was stationed there. The Luftwaffe was very helpful to me! While I was at Memmingen, I saw a project they were working on in their library with 1930's photos of the air base and aircraft, both on the ground and in flight. I have several books on KG/51 Edelweiss and the fliegerhorste by Wolfgang Dierich. I don't know what happened to the Memmingen collection (Jabog 34 closed in 2004).
It has been difficult to find photos but Larry D. on this forum was helpful and there were dozens of recon photos taken. Maybe TARA will get it together someday.
The photo I mentioned earlier had a white border on it that says"confidential", "1100"
and "18 Avril 1945" So it may be French(?).

Anyway, thanks for your leads, I'll check out the books. Aerial Recon seems to be a bit light on resources!

If you are interested, I found this site the other day, with lots of recon from NARA and others as well as strike photos, and life on airifields, etc. LOTS of photos!

http://www.486th.org/Photos/Strike/Strike.htm

Thank you very much for your help! :D

David

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Matzos
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Post by Matzos » 16 Sep 2006 12:29

Excellent link Dave!

I helps me with some the imagery I hold, thanks.

Mick

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dabbydo
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Post by dabbydo » 16 Sep 2006 13:05

You are welcome, Mick!

David :)

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Karte
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Open records

Post by Karte » 09 Oct 2006 13:03

dabbydo-

I live near the US National Archives in College Park Maryland and have conducted extensive reseach on their WWII aerial photo holdings there. A long story short- after WWII the US and British conducted several secret operations called "Operation Dick Tracy, Patron, Monthy, Lattice, Filter, and Tenant". Dick Tracy was the largest, and basically contains all German aerial recon photos, maps, target folders, films, books, geographic data, and more. The British copied most -not all- of the photos and kept them, which was in theory going to be part of the Evidence In Camera Website by Keele.

The 1.2 million German aerial photos are all held in College Park and anyone can see, copy, and research them from anywhere in the world. I have conducted research for folks in Germany, US, Russia, and Belarus. Also there are frequently folks from "FlashbackTV" (UK) there doing research as well. I would bet money that the photo you hold is also held at the archives, which in turn makes it open to the entire world.

I am slowly but surely collecting mountians of data on these Operations that were kept Secret until the '70s, for a website and hopefully a book. The reson for keeping much of the data Secret was that it was the best source of aerial intel on the Soviet Union at the time, and usually the most up-to-date maps in the 1940-1960.

regards

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dabbydo
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Post by dabbydo » 09 Oct 2006 21:56

Thanks, Karte! I will definitely check out that site!

Thanks again :D Can you post a link to that site?

David

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Karte
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No Site

Post by Karte » 10 Oct 2006 01:26

The bad news is that NARA (http://www.archives.gov) has very poor online databases for searching most things, mainly due to the massive volume of information they have. The only way to really do this research is to go there and do it yourself, or go though a long and expensive process of requesting NARA employees to do the research for you, then they send you a list of the documents that fit you search, then you have to contact a private vendor that works with NARA to get the copies made. The private vendors charge an astronomical amount per photo, about $20.00 US and up. If you go there and find the info on your own, they have photo quality copiers that will cost about $6.00 per aerial photo.

I am also working on a guide to finding and researching German aerial photography/maps and the rest of the "Operations" -I previously discussed- that the archives has -tentatively- agreed to hand out for free.

APMAN
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TARA - keele

Post by APMAN » 10 Mar 2007 22:16

If you want to get hold of Keele TARA - ring them up, thats what I do.

They only have a small staff and although they have the status of a Public Records collection (governments repsonsibility) the government doesnt give them any money so they have to raise it from selling images.

Consider the cost of storing and caring for millions of images and having to raise however many thousand per month to keep it running - the people spending the money are not going to be people interested in military history but the european governments and companies who want to buy hundreds of photos! Thats probably why they dont answer every query.

Sure they have the right to charge for research or copies of images. Its unfortunate that this would put the cost beyond the reach of the private researcher. Still easier to use remotely than NARA though. If they were given public money it would be different and Im sure they would love that.

As for Mr Matzos saying that 1940s aerial photography would be better off kept by the military......the records of the DIA and RAF have been good in trashing 1940s stuff which has become 'out of date' and its helpful to know that if I pay I can get research done at NARA and TARA without being told I have to wait due to 'operational reasons'.

Keele should update that website though.

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Oracle
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Post by Oracle » 10 Mar 2007 22:39

I am not sure what the situation is about Crown Copyright in the UK, but I suspect it's 75 years now* whereas in Canada it's 50...so anything Canadian that was arguably for the Crown is copyright free, and so is anything that the Canadians have. I have obtained Luftwaffe bombing photos from various sources including what was the PRO (now National Archives) in Kew, and also NARA, Washington. Probably when negatives were copied 50 years' rights applied..my attitude is post and acknowledge the source.


*Official maps are still 50 years I seem to recall, so WW2 Ordnance Survey etc. maps are now out of copyright.

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Matzos
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Post by Matzos » 11 Mar 2007 02:04

With regards to UK Crown Copyright have a look a the following table

Image

I hope it is of some use

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Karte
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Copyright Law

Post by Karte » 11 Mar 2007 03:39

I have been working on the exact copyright law for captured German records held by the US. So far nobody knows exactly but what I have found is that these maps and photos taken as war booty and eventually used by the US government of whatever then declassifed is now public domain (regardless of the German gov/mil org publishing). I chatted with an with US Justice Dept and this is what they told me. I still am looking for the offical documentation on this though to protect my coming book. EU, UK and CA law may differ.

APMAN
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Copyright

Post by APMAN » 11 Mar 2007 10:01

Bravo to Matzos for posting that table - the clearest rendering of UK Crown Copyright that I have ever seen.

There seems to be much confusion on CC all round so I will happily use this table. Even if copyright has expired on a photograph I have been told by a Government officer that if it is published I would still have to acknowledge 'Crown Copyright'. Bizarre.

The Americans definitely lead the way on this - the USAAF material was paid for by the tax dollar, the Luftwaffe material was catalogued with taxpayers money and therfore once it is in archives it is completely open to use.

This is not necesarily the case in the UK where archives e.g. English Heritage hold Air Photos that are Copyriight expired but they USE LICENSE the images to you i.e. if you have a copy you cant do what you want with it and may have to pay a fee to publish it in a book, put on aweb site etc.

The Freedom of Information legislation in the UK is not as good as the US as holders of the information can still charge you a 'reasonable fee; to provide you with the information.

I wish that I lived near NARA!

Michael Kenny
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Post by Michael Kenny » 11 Mar 2007 19:21

There is a world of difference between copyright and reproduction fees.................!

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