Hello,
Was this naval unit a Gruppe or a Geschwader?
At a time, two groups (I. and II./186) did exist. Their purpose was to operate aboard the aircraft carrier "Graf Zeppelin". But was its official designation Trägergruppe 186 or Trägergeschwader 186?
Thank you!
Cheers,
CNE503
Trägergruppe or Trägergeschwader 186?
Trägergruppe or Trägergeschwader 186?
"Sicut Aquila" / "Ils s'instruisent pour vaincre" / "par l'exemple, le coeur et la raison" / "Labor Omnia Vincit"
Re: Trägergruppe or Trägergeschwader 186?
NEVER a Geswchwader.................
Trägergruppe 186 (Carrier Group 186) was activated on 1 October 1938 as part of the program for the completion of the aircraft carrier Graf Zeppelin, construction of which began 28 December 1936 at Kiel. A special version of the Ju 87 dive bomber, specifically the Ju 87C, and a special version of the Messerschmitt fighter, the Bf 109T, were developed for carrier operations, the Graf Zeppelin having an initial combined complement of 42 of these. But bitter opposition to aircraft carriers and any other sort of naval air arm by Reichsmarschall Göring and other high-ups in the Luftwaffe, coupled with wartime material and skilled labor shortages, caused repeated delays until work on the Graf Zeppelin was brought to a final halt in 1943. Meanwhile, Trägergruppe 186 was committed to front line service from the first day of the war, as its unit history shows, rather than held back to wait for an aircraft carrier than might never be completed.
L.
Trägergruppe 186 (Carrier Group 186) was activated on 1 October 1938 as part of the program for the completion of the aircraft carrier Graf Zeppelin, construction of which began 28 December 1936 at Kiel. A special version of the Ju 87 dive bomber, specifically the Ju 87C, and a special version of the Messerschmitt fighter, the Bf 109T, were developed for carrier operations, the Graf Zeppelin having an initial combined complement of 42 of these. But bitter opposition to aircraft carriers and any other sort of naval air arm by Reichsmarschall Göring and other high-ups in the Luftwaffe, coupled with wartime material and skilled labor shortages, caused repeated delays until work on the Graf Zeppelin was brought to a final halt in 1943. Meanwhile, Trägergruppe 186 was committed to front line service from the first day of the war, as its unit history shows, rather than held back to wait for an aircraft carrier than might never be completed.
L.
Re: Trägergruppe or Trägergeschwader 186?
Hello Larry,
Thank you for your answer.
I do understand what you say. But how do you explain that there were a I./186 and a II./186 at the same time? If there were two groups, how can there be only one group and not a wing?
Cheers,
CNE503
Thank you for your answer.
I do understand what you say. But how do you explain that there were a I./186 and a II./186 at the same time? If there were two groups, how can there be only one group and not a wing?
Cheers,
CNE503
"Sicut Aquila" / "Ils s'instruisent pour vaincre" / "par l'exemple, le coeur et la raison" / "Labor Omnia Vincit"
Re: Trägergruppe or Trägergeschwader 186?
I don't know. I think there were plans to expand it to a full Geschwader with 3 or 4 Gruppen but this never developed past the planning stage. Furthermore, each of the two existing Gruppen were different - one fighter and the other dive-bomber. But I have never seen anything in the form of orders or planning documents to confirm this. Here are some references for 186:
German aircraft carrier Graf Zeppelin, in: website en2.wikipedia.org; J.Prien-Geschichte des Jagdgeschwaders 77/Band (vol.) 1:47-51ff; K.Ries-Luftwaffen-Story 1935-1939:140; F.L.Marshall-Sea Eagles: The Me 109T (Walton on Thames: Air Research Publications, 1994); AFHRA Maxwell AFB, Montgomery, Alabama: decimal 512, A.I.12 (Post Hostilities section) study Y/29 “G.A.F. Establishment Schedule Numbers”.
IIRC, both Prien and Frank Marshall have a lot of details on 186, including the reason why it never became a Geschwader.
L.
German aircraft carrier Graf Zeppelin, in: website en2.wikipedia.org; J.Prien-Geschichte des Jagdgeschwaders 77/Band (vol.) 1:47-51ff; K.Ries-Luftwaffen-Story 1935-1939:140; F.L.Marshall-Sea Eagles: The Me 109T (Walton on Thames: Air Research Publications, 1994); AFHRA Maxwell AFB, Montgomery, Alabama: decimal 512, A.I.12 (Post Hostilities section) study Y/29 “G.A.F. Establishment Schedule Numbers”.
IIRC, both Prien and Frank Marshall have a lot of details on 186, including the reason why it never became a Geschwader.
L.
Re: Trägergruppe or Trägergeschwader 186?
According to Manfred Griehl, Junkers Ju 87 Stuka, p. 223-224, the ObdL issued an order to form the first Trägergeschwader on 29.7.1937. This unit should be ready as of 1.10.1938 (at Bremerhaven) and was to consist of three Träger-Mehrzweckstaffel (Fi 167), one Stuka- and one Jagdstaffel. The "Gruppe" level was introduced later, from 1.8.1938, when Trägerkampfgruppe I./186 was formed (1. to 3. Staffel). This unit was soon after renamed a Sturzkampffliegergruppe. A 4th and 5th Staffel were also raised at around that time, but in early 1939 it was decided that for the time being the Geschwader should consist of four Stuka- and two Jagdstaffeln, no Gruppen. Perhaps the Gruppe level was considered inappropriate or unecessary as the carrier would operate Staffeln of different types. Then on 10.9.1939 the order was issued to form I. Sturzkampffliegergruppe 186 (T) with Stab and two Staffeln (all with Ju 87). This unit took part in the campaign in the West and on 9.7.1940 was redesignated III./StG 1.
All a bit confusing. Apparently the organisation was changed several times as the expected date of entry into service of the Graf Zeppelin moved further into the future. I don't know when the Geschwader officially ceased to exist.
All a bit confusing. Apparently the organisation was changed several times as the expected date of entry into service of the Graf Zeppelin moved further into the future. I don't know when the Geschwader officially ceased to exist.
"The true spirit of conversation consists in building on another man's observation, not overturning it." Edward George Bulwer-Lytton
Re: Trägergruppe or Trägergeschwader 186?
More information - and confusion - here: http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=43214
"The true spirit of conversation consists in building on another man's observation, not overturning it." Edward George Bulwer-Lytton
Re: Trägergruppe or Trägergeschwader 186?
Thank you gentlemen. I understand that Trägergeschwader 186 never existed as a full naval wing, only as a number without staff, but that instead one and then two groups (I. and II. Gruppen of Trägergeschwader 186) were activated.
Cheers,
CNE503
Cheers,
CNE503
"Sicut Aquila" / "Ils s'instruisent pour vaincre" / "par l'exemple, le coeur et la raison" / "Labor Omnia Vincit"
Re: Trägergruppe or Trägergeschwader 186?
Hello to all 
, just two cents.....................................
Trägerfliegerverbandes (Aircraft carrier units).
The Reich Minister of Aviation and Supreme Commander of the Air Force (Luftwaffe) issued on July 29, 1937 the Organization order No. 6072/37 in order to go to the formation of the first aircraft carrier unit. The Geschwader 186 to be set up in Bremerhaven would had as October 1, 1938 the following organization:
Geschwader staff
3 carrier multipurpose squadrons
1 carrier stuka squadron
1 carrier figther squadron
A squadron was planned with eight operational and four reserve machines. The aircraft carrier itself was assigned five squadrons as a standard complement, four of which were to be on board and one on land as a training and replacement unit. Originally, each Carrier should have six squadrons. During the design work on the first carrier ship, however, the aircraft capacity decreased from 60 to 48 machines.
On August 1, 1938, was organized the I./186 with three squadrons (1 to 3/.186). [...] on October 22, 1938, these units were dissolved again and the officers were at disposal of the RLM (Reich Air Ministry).
Ten days later, on November 1, 1938, was formed the II./186 with two squadrons, but without a HQ (Stab). These first carrier squadrons were the 4th (Stuka) / 186 under Hauptmann Erich Blattner with Ju 87 C and B and the 6th (Fighter) / 186 under Hauptmann Heinrich Seeliger with Bf 109 E and T.
The two first carrier squadrons were put together with 13 coastal squadrons in the secret Operation Order 1/38, under the leader of the Sea Air Forces, (Seeluftstreitkräfte), Generalmajor Hans Ferdinand Geisler (1891 - 1966) on December 14, 1938 in the preparations for the annexation of Memel (Tarnbezeichung »Transport Exercise Stettin ")..................
In view of the approaching completion date of the "Graf Zeppelin", on February 6, 1939 the RLM decreed in the order no. 318/39 GKdos "Aufstellungen See in 1939" the formation of the following structural elements as of November 1, 1939:
Stab Trägergeschwader 186
Träger-Stuka-Staffel 1./186
Träger-Stuka-Staffel 2./186
Träger-Stuka-Staffel 3./186
Träger-Jagdstaffel 5./186
A boarding flight command for an aircraft carrier (»Graf Zeppelin«).
In the order of the R.d.L./Ob.d.L. No. 860/39 GKdos. from April 4, 1939, these statements for "Graf Zeppelin" were further specified and supplemented by the establishment of motorized airport operations companies for the carrier squadrons as November 1, 1939. In an annex to this order, Bremerhaven was designated as the location for organization and garrison point.
Deviating from all previous plans, the Luftwaffe wanted to form the carrier squadron of four Stuka squadrons (1st to 4th / 186) and two fighter squadrons (5th and 6th / 186). The omission of multipurpose squadrons is explained above all by the lack of suitable aircraft torpedoes. Corrections of the composition of the carrier squadron were only planned for November 1940. In the course of these planned changes, it was intended to equip three squadrons for the Fighter Wing (Trägergeschwader) 186 with the multi-purpose Fieseler Fi 167 aircraft. The number of Stuka squadrons should be reduced to two, the number of fighter squadrons to one.
On May 16, 1939, an amendment to the Order No. 860/39 GKdos. Parent units or units that had to provide assistance and support to the ordered organized units during its formation:
Staff Carrier Group (Trägergruppe) II./186 in Kiel-Holtenau for the boarding flier command on "Graf Zeppelin" and for the staff of the Trägergeschwaders (Wing) 186th
Carrier-Stuka-Staffel 4./186 in Kiel-Holtenau for the new Carrier Stuka staffeln 1. to 3./186
Carrier-Jagd-Staffel 6./186, also in Holtenau, for the new Carrier-Jagd-Staffel 5./186
In the last days of relative peace in August 1939, the carrier squadrons of the II./186 moved from Kiel-Holtenau to the east: the fighter squadrons 5./186 and 6./186 on August 22 and 24 August respectively to Brüsterort, the Stuka-Staffel 4./186 to Stolp in Pommern [...]
Sources: http://www.forum-marinearchiv.de/smf/in ... c=20378.75
http://newspaperslibrary.org/articles/e ... C3%A4ger_B
Cheers. Raúl M
.
, just two cents.....................................Trägerfliegerverbandes (Aircraft carrier units).
The Reich Minister of Aviation and Supreme Commander of the Air Force (Luftwaffe) issued on July 29, 1937 the Organization order No. 6072/37 in order to go to the formation of the first aircraft carrier unit. The Geschwader 186 to be set up in Bremerhaven would had as October 1, 1938 the following organization:
Geschwader staff
3 carrier multipurpose squadrons
1 carrier stuka squadron
1 carrier figther squadron
A squadron was planned with eight operational and four reserve machines. The aircraft carrier itself was assigned five squadrons as a standard complement, four of which were to be on board and one on land as a training and replacement unit. Originally, each Carrier should have six squadrons. During the design work on the first carrier ship, however, the aircraft capacity decreased from 60 to 48 machines.
On August 1, 1938, was organized the I./186 with three squadrons (1 to 3/.186). [...] on October 22, 1938, these units were dissolved again and the officers were at disposal of the RLM (Reich Air Ministry).
Ten days later, on November 1, 1938, was formed the II./186 with two squadrons, but without a HQ (Stab). These first carrier squadrons were the 4th (Stuka) / 186 under Hauptmann Erich Blattner with Ju 87 C and B and the 6th (Fighter) / 186 under Hauptmann Heinrich Seeliger with Bf 109 E and T.
The two first carrier squadrons were put together with 13 coastal squadrons in the secret Operation Order 1/38, under the leader of the Sea Air Forces, (Seeluftstreitkräfte), Generalmajor Hans Ferdinand Geisler (1891 - 1966) on December 14, 1938 in the preparations for the annexation of Memel (Tarnbezeichung »Transport Exercise Stettin ")..................
In view of the approaching completion date of the "Graf Zeppelin", on February 6, 1939 the RLM decreed in the order no. 318/39 GKdos "Aufstellungen See in 1939" the formation of the following structural elements as of November 1, 1939:
Stab Trägergeschwader 186
Träger-Stuka-Staffel 1./186
Träger-Stuka-Staffel 2./186
Träger-Stuka-Staffel 3./186
Träger-Jagdstaffel 5./186
A boarding flight command for an aircraft carrier (»Graf Zeppelin«).
In the order of the R.d.L./Ob.d.L. No. 860/39 GKdos. from April 4, 1939, these statements for "Graf Zeppelin" were further specified and supplemented by the establishment of motorized airport operations companies for the carrier squadrons as November 1, 1939. In an annex to this order, Bremerhaven was designated as the location for organization and garrison point.
Deviating from all previous plans, the Luftwaffe wanted to form the carrier squadron of four Stuka squadrons (1st to 4th / 186) and two fighter squadrons (5th and 6th / 186). The omission of multipurpose squadrons is explained above all by the lack of suitable aircraft torpedoes. Corrections of the composition of the carrier squadron were only planned for November 1940. In the course of these planned changes, it was intended to equip three squadrons for the Fighter Wing (Trägergeschwader) 186 with the multi-purpose Fieseler Fi 167 aircraft. The number of Stuka squadrons should be reduced to two, the number of fighter squadrons to one.
On May 16, 1939, an amendment to the Order No. 860/39 GKdos. Parent units or units that had to provide assistance and support to the ordered organized units during its formation:
Staff Carrier Group (Trägergruppe) II./186 in Kiel-Holtenau for the boarding flier command on "Graf Zeppelin" and for the staff of the Trägergeschwaders (Wing) 186th
Carrier-Stuka-Staffel 4./186 in Kiel-Holtenau for the new Carrier Stuka staffeln 1. to 3./186
Carrier-Jagd-Staffel 6./186, also in Holtenau, for the new Carrier-Jagd-Staffel 5./186
In the last days of relative peace in August 1939, the carrier squadrons of the II./186 moved from Kiel-Holtenau to the east: the fighter squadrons 5./186 and 6./186 on August 22 and 24 August respectively to Brüsterort, the Stuka-Staffel 4./186 to Stolp in Pommern [...]
Sources: http://www.forum-marinearchiv.de/smf/in ... c=20378.75
http://newspaperslibrary.org/articles/e ... C3%A4ger_B
Cheers. Raúl M
.Re: Trägergruppe or Trägergeschwader 186?
Hello to all , more.....................................
Trägerfliegerverbandes (Aircraft carrier units).
With these means and composition the Trägergruppe (Carrier Group) II./186 came to the contest as a component of the aircraft carrier "Graf Zeppelin", for which it had been organized, equipped and trained as a main weapon without its warship.
It was, despite the persistent deficiencies in the equipment and the training of the combat pilots, the strongest unit within the F.d.Luft Ost, which had established its command post at the Seefliegerhorst Dievenow (Pomerania), in the northeast corner of the island of Wolin.
The F.d.Luft Ost was Generalmajor Joachim Coeler (1891 - 1955), previously worked at the RLM as Inspector of the Seeflieger (L.In. 8). The aircraft carrier squadrons did not remain subordinate to him for a long time.
The Squadron of Stuka 4./186 was employed from the first day of the war, especially against the bases of the Polish Navy. The squadrons (Jagdstaffeln) 5./186 and 6./186 flew as fighting protection.
Already on September 6, 1939, the fighter pilots returned to Kiel. The next day they settled at the Hage airfield in Ostfriesland, 28 km north of Emden and an old airship port. [...]
Both squadrons were subordinated to the Jagdgeschwader 1, commanded by Oberstleutnant Carl Schumacher.
Shortly after the war began, the air force leaders decided to take the next steps in the formation of the aircraft carrier-based air forces, which corresponded to the protocol between the two commanders-in-chief.
On September 10, 1939, Order 2710/39, »Aufstellung von Fliegerverbänden (See)« (Organization of air units (Sea), determined the immediate formation of the following structural elements in Kiel-Holtenau:
Command of the group of dive bombers (Sturzkampffliegergruppe) I./186 (T)
2 squadrons of dive bombers (Sturzkampffliegerstaffeln) 1./186 (T) and 2./186 (T)
Command of the Fighting Group (Jagdfliegergruppe) II./186 (T)
1 fighting squadron (Jagdfliegerstaffel) 4. / 186 (T)
At the same time, the change of the name of the old dive bomber squadron (Trägersturzkampfstaffel) 4./186 in 3./186 (T) was ordered. [...]
Sources: http://www.forum-marinearchiv.de/smf/in ... c=20378.75
http://newspaperslibrary.org/articles/e ... C3%A4ger_B
Cheers. Raúl M.
, more.....................................Trägerfliegerverbandes (Aircraft carrier units).
With these means and composition the Trägergruppe (Carrier Group) II./186 came to the contest as a component of the aircraft carrier "Graf Zeppelin", for which it had been organized, equipped and trained as a main weapon without its warship.
It was, despite the persistent deficiencies in the equipment and the training of the combat pilots, the strongest unit within the F.d.Luft Ost, which had established its command post at the Seefliegerhorst Dievenow (Pomerania), in the northeast corner of the island of Wolin.
The F.d.Luft Ost was Generalmajor Joachim Coeler (1891 - 1955), previously worked at the RLM as Inspector of the Seeflieger (L.In. 8). The aircraft carrier squadrons did not remain subordinate to him for a long time.
The Squadron of Stuka 4./186 was employed from the first day of the war, especially against the bases of the Polish Navy. The squadrons (Jagdstaffeln) 5./186 and 6./186 flew as fighting protection.
Already on September 6, 1939, the fighter pilots returned to Kiel. The next day they settled at the Hage airfield in Ostfriesland, 28 km north of Emden and an old airship port. [...]
Both squadrons were subordinated to the Jagdgeschwader 1, commanded by Oberstleutnant Carl Schumacher.
Shortly after the war began, the air force leaders decided to take the next steps in the formation of the aircraft carrier-based air forces, which corresponded to the protocol between the two commanders-in-chief.
On September 10, 1939, Order 2710/39, »Aufstellung von Fliegerverbänden (See)« (Organization of air units (Sea), determined the immediate formation of the following structural elements in Kiel-Holtenau:
Command of the group of dive bombers (Sturzkampffliegergruppe) I./186 (T)
2 squadrons of dive bombers (Sturzkampffliegerstaffeln) 1./186 (T) and 2./186 (T)
Command of the Fighting Group (Jagdfliegergruppe) II./186 (T)
1 fighting squadron (Jagdfliegerstaffel) 4. / 186 (T)
At the same time, the change of the name of the old dive bomber squadron (Trägersturzkampfstaffel) 4./186 in 3./186 (T) was ordered. [...]
Sources: http://www.forum-marinearchiv.de/smf/in ... c=20378.75
http://newspaperslibrary.org/articles/e ... C3%A4ger_B
Cheers. Raúl M
.Re: Trägergruppe or Trägergeschwader 186?
Hello to all , more.....................................
Trägerfliegerverbandes (Aircraft carrier units).
In the middle of this reorganization of the carrier squadrons the former Staffelkapitän (squadron leader) of the Jagdstaffel (fighter squadron) 6./186, Hauptmann Heinrich Seeliger, assumed as Commander of the Jagdfliegergruppe II./186 (T). Oberleutnant Hans-Herbert Wulff assumed the leadership of the 6./186. The Fighting Group was completed when, on October 1, 1939, the new 4./186 was created under the command of the Hauptmann Werner Restemeyer.
At the same time, the Dive Bombing Group (Stuka) I./186 (Major Hagen) was completed through the newly established squadrons:
The Stuka-Staffel 1./186 was led by Hauptmann Helmut Bode and the 2./186 by Oberleutnant Helmut Mahlke.
The Stuka-Staffel 3./186 (ex 4./186), the oldest and most experienced German aircraft carrier squadron, was still under the command of the Hauptmann Blattner.
Completely unexpected and in the middle of the formation process of the Stuka Group, on September 25, 1939, the Ob.d.L. ordered the immediate transfer of the 3./186 of the command of the maritime air forces and its subordination to the Luftflotte 2. [...]
Goering went a step further and on September 25, 1939, he ordered not only the transfer of Stuka's squadron 3./186, but the immediate subordination of all the carrier air units, including those still in the process of formation, until the entry into service of the "Graf Zeppelin" under the command of Luftflotte 2. "
Sources: http://www.forum-marinearchiv.de/smf/in ... c=20378.75
http://newspaperslibrary.org/articles/e ... C3%A4ger_B
Cheers. Raúl M.
, more.....................................Trägerfliegerverbandes (Aircraft carrier units).
In the middle of this reorganization of the carrier squadrons the former Staffelkapitän (squadron leader) of the Jagdstaffel (fighter squadron) 6./186, Hauptmann Heinrich Seeliger, assumed as Commander of the Jagdfliegergruppe II./186 (T). Oberleutnant Hans-Herbert Wulff assumed the leadership of the 6./186. The Fighting Group was completed when, on October 1, 1939, the new 4./186 was created under the command of the Hauptmann Werner Restemeyer.
At the same time, the Dive Bombing Group (Stuka) I./186 (Major Hagen) was completed through the newly established squadrons:
The Stuka-Staffel 1./186 was led by Hauptmann Helmut Bode and the 2./186 by Oberleutnant Helmut Mahlke.
The Stuka-Staffel 3./186 (ex 4./186), the oldest and most experienced German aircraft carrier squadron, was still under the command of the Hauptmann Blattner.
Completely unexpected and in the middle of the formation process of the Stuka Group, on September 25, 1939, the Ob.d.L. ordered the immediate transfer of the 3./186 of the command of the maritime air forces and its subordination to the Luftflotte 2. [...]
Goering went a step further and on September 25, 1939, he ordered not only the transfer of Stuka's squadron 3./186, but the immediate subordination of all the carrier air units, including those still in the process of formation, until the entry into service of the "Graf Zeppelin" under the command of Luftflotte 2. "
Sources: http://www.forum-marinearchiv.de/smf/in ... c=20378.75
http://newspaperslibrary.org/articles/e ... C3%A4ger_B
Cheers. Raúl M
.Re: Trägergruppe or Trägergeschwader 186?
Hello
First and foremost few words of explanation, I am doing the research about operations of Polish submarine Orzel (Eagle) during first months of WW2 on Baltic Sea.
I found the information that I (Stuka) Trägergruppe 186 & II (Jagd) Trägergruppe 186, operated from Bursterort airfield ( today Donskoye, Kaliningrad oblast) in months Augst & September 1939 - could you please confirm what was the strength of both groups? I'm also looking for information regarding operations of Luftdienst-Teilkdo 3/68 from the same airfield - allegedly stationed there between April 1938 until some point of 1940. What aircraft they used? How dangerous these would be for surfaced submarine?
And the question specifically related to Stukas - SC250 equipped with Prallscheibe & Prallplatte against warships, I understand that one of Stuka groups used Ju-87C, have the Germans equipped these warplanes with modified SC-250 to bomb Polish warships?
Thank you in advance
First and foremost few words of explanation, I am doing the research about operations of Polish submarine Orzel (Eagle) during first months of WW2 on Baltic Sea.
I found the information that I (Stuka) Trägergruppe 186 & II (Jagd) Trägergruppe 186, operated from Bursterort airfield ( today Donskoye, Kaliningrad oblast) in months Augst & September 1939 - could you please confirm what was the strength of both groups? I'm also looking for information regarding operations of Luftdienst-Teilkdo 3/68 from the same airfield - allegedly stationed there between April 1938 until some point of 1940. What aircraft they used? How dangerous these would be for surfaced submarine?
And the question specifically related to Stukas - SC250 equipped with Prallscheibe & Prallplatte against warships, I understand that one of Stuka groups used Ju-87C, have the Germans equipped these warplanes with modified SC-250 to bomb Polish warships?
Thank you in advance