III./ZG 1 arrival in North Africa 1942

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Dili
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III./ZG 1 arrival in North Africa 1942

Post by Dili » 09 Jul 2019 04:31

I have conflicting information, that it arrived with Bf 109 fighter bombers and Me 210 ones which is also the information available in reputable : https://www.ww2.dk/air/zerstorer/zg1.htm
But i also have that it arrived only with Me 210. Anyone knows the numbers, maybe that can clear things ?

Richard Anderson
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Re: III./ZG 1 arrival in North Africa 1942

Post by Richard Anderson » 09 Jul 2019 04:47

Dili wrote:
09 Jul 2019 04:31
I have conflicting information, that it arrived with Bf 109 fighter bombers and Me 210 ones which is also the information available in reputable : https://www.ww2.dk/air/zerstorer/zg1.htm
But i also have that it arrived only with Me 210. Anyone knows the numbers, maybe that can clear things ?
As of 1 August 1942 it had no aircraft, transferring all 28 of its Bf 109 E-7/U2 to other units. During August it supposedly received 30, but it had none as of 1 September, so I suspect this is a typo in the original records. Instead, it started September with 2 Bf 110 E (I suspect those are what it actually received during August) and received 24 Bf 110A/F. It received 17 Me 219 A-1 during October, probably after it was transferred to Trapani.
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

Dili
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Location: Lusitania

Re: III./ZG 1 arrival in North Africa 1942

Post by Dili » 10 Jul 2019 02:20

Thanks Richard.
24 Bf 110 A/F shouldn't be E/F?

Richard Anderson
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Re: III./ZG 1 arrival in North Africa 1942

Post by Richard Anderson » 10 Jul 2019 15:04

Dili wrote:
10 Jul 2019 02:20
Thanks Richard.
24 Bf 110 A/F shouldn't be E/F?
Probably, but that is the way it was transcribed at http://www.ww2.dk/
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

Dili
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Location: Lusitania

Re: III./ZG 1 arrival in North Africa 1942

Post by Dili » 10 Jul 2019 17:49

I don't find that, can you give me a direct link to the page?

Richard Anderson
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Re: III./ZG 1 arrival in North Africa 1942

Post by Richard Anderson » 11 Jul 2019 00:58

Dili wrote:
10 Jul 2019 17:49
I don't find that, can you give me a direct link to the page?
Hi Dili,

Considering your interest in the subject, I'm a little surprised you have not explored Michael Holm's site more. It is a treasure trove. Instead of just giving you the link to the page, let me step you through how to get to the page using the site, since it will then give you the ability to search for other interesting units.

Okay...go to http://www.ww2.dk/ On the left side contents navigation click on "Air units". Under that topic, click on "Twin-engined fighter units". Then click on ZG 1. You will be on the page for the history of ZG 1 and its sub-units. Scroll to the bottom of the page, which has the Flugzeugbestand und Bewegungsmeldungen for the units. Click on the one for III./ZG 1 and it will give you the monthly reports. Note that these are sometimes, as in this case, imperfect and occasionally contradictory. However, it is usually possible to get a good idea of the aircraft strength and losses for the unit.

Also, from the site home page, click on "Tony Wood"...among his entries is one for "Order of Battle - Mediterranean area, 1940 - 1942", which is aa link to a PDF. It actually starts with 31 January 1941, but is very useful.

Lastly, the forum link is useful - it is to "12 O'Clock High!" where there are many knowledgeable posters on the LW, RAF, and USAAF.
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

Andrew Arthy
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Re: III./ZG 1 arrival in North Africa 1942

Post by Andrew Arthy » 11 Jul 2019 06:09

Hi,

III./Z.G. 1 left the Eastern Front in early August 1942 after giving its Bf 109 Jabos to another unit. It then took on more Bf 109s in the Reich before transferring to North Africa via Italy. It was amalgamated into I./Sch.G. 2 in September 1942.

Meanwhile, a new III./Z.G. 1 was formed in September 1942 from I./Z.G. 2 as a twin-engined Zerstörer unit.

Thus the Bf 110 Zerstörer unit and Bf 109 Jabo unit were two entirely separate entities, and it was the Bf 109 Jabo-equipped III./Z.G. 1 that transferred to North Africa.

Sources I used included a Flugbuch copy, Luftwaffe losses, and Luftwaffe strength returns.

Cheers,
Andrew A.
Air War Publications - www.airwarpublications.com/earticles

Dili
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Re: III./ZG 1 arrival in North Africa 1942

Post by Dili » 11 Jul 2019 09:14

Sorry i am a bit tired, trying to do too much. I had that page saved already but from a couple years ago including Tony Wood's file, which for i have a doubt of quantity meanings there "Est." "and "S" ?

Richard Anderson
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Re: III./ZG 1 arrival in North Africa 1942

Post by Richard Anderson » 11 Jul 2019 19:44

Dili wrote:
11 Jul 2019 09:14
Sorry i am a bit tired, trying to do too much. I had that page saved already but from a couple years ago including Tony Wood's file, which for i have a doubt of quantity meanings there "Est." "and "S" ?
"Est." = Establishment, a British term for Sollstärke
"S" = Serviceable, a British term for Einsatzbereit
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

Richard Anderson
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Posts: 2357
Joined: 01 Jan 2016 21:21
Location: Bremerton, Washington

Re: III./ZG 1 arrival in North Africa 1942

Post by Richard Anderson » 11 Jul 2019 19:45

Andrew Arthy wrote:
11 Jul 2019 06:09
Hi,

III./Z.G. 1 left the Eastern Front in early August 1942 after giving its Bf 109 Jabos to another unit. It then took on more Bf 109s in the Reich before transferring to North Africa via Italy. It was amalgamated into I./Sch.G. 2 in September 1942.

Meanwhile, a new III./Z.G. 1 was formed in September 1942 from I./Z.G. 2 as a twin-engined Zerstörer unit.

Thus the Bf 110 Zerstörer unit and Bf 109 Jabo unit were two entirely separate entities, and it was the Bf 109 Jabo-equipped III./Z.G. 1 that transferred to North Africa.

Sources I used included a Flugbuch copy, Luftwaffe losses, and Luftwaffe strength returns.

Cheers,
Andrew A.
Air War Publications - www.airwarpublications.com/earticles
Thanks Andrew that makes sense. I might have been able to tease that out from the unit organizational histories, but I am happy to use you as a shortcut. :D
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

Dili
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Location: Lusitania

Re: III./ZG 1 arrival in North Africa 1942

Post by Dili » 11 Jul 2019 20:11

Thanks Richard.

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