sanger silverbird

[GABRIELLO]

hi to everybody, I am new in this discussion forum. I am soryy if my english write is not very good.

please, can you tell me about the fantastic amerika´s project, and silverbird aircraft?

there is possibility that it began to be built this fantastic airplane?

somebody thinks if their warlike load was dedicated to harbor an atomic bomb?

thanks
gabriel

[gogh]

the site luft46 in various has a article about sanger

http://www.luft46.com

greatings P.van Gogh from Holland

[Topspeed]

Sänger Silverbyrd

[GABRIELLO]

thanks by this images, but but it already knew them. you equally that shchifer books has a book in this respect.
little documentation exists in the web on the silverbird, I imagine that for the resticciones and prohibitions that exist still on the high German technology of the forty, especially the aerospace one, because the big powers used it to continue developing it after the I finish of the war.

greetings
gabriello

[Simon Gunson]

It would be hard to justify the expense of this technology without there being some sort of weapon worth that effort.

Nazi Germany did have a biological weapons project under Prof Eugene von Haaken. That is one possibility.

The explosive used at the Ohrdruf Concentration camp on or about 16 March 1945 appears to have been a fuel air explosive using uranium oxide as part of a chemical explosive.

Lastly there was an atomic bomb project and a uranium enrichment project towards building a uranium atomic weapon, associated with Dr Paul Harteck.

From what I have learned about General Dornberger and Dr Werner von Braun going to Lisbon in October 1944 (disclosed at Farm Hall) to negotiate the surrender of nazi scientists to the Americans (but not the British) it seems to me that whatever potential there was to create an Atomic bomb ended at Lisbon in 1944.

If the Sanger Silverbird was intended for an A-bomb, it follows that probably Werner von Braun and his SS co-conspirators pulled the plug and cancelled the project.

[Cantankerous]

It would be hard to justify the expense of this technology without there being some sort of weapon worth that effort.

Nazi Germany did have a biological weapons project under Prof Eugene von Haaken. That is one possibility.

The explosive used at the Ohrdruf Concentration camp on or about 16 March 1945 appears to have been a fuel air explosive using uranium oxide as part of a chemical explosive.

Lastly there was an atomic bomb project and a uranium enrichment project towards building a uranium atomic weapon, associated with Dr Paul Harteck.

From what I have learned about General Dornberger and Dr Werner von Braun going to Lisbon in October 1944 (disclosed at Farm Hall) to negotiate the surrender of nazi scientists to the Americans (but not the British) it seems to me that whatever potential there was to create an Atomic bomb ended at Lisbon in 1944.

If the Sanger Silverbird was intended for an A-bomb, it follows that probably Werner von Braun and his SS co-conspirators pulled the plug and cancelled the project.

The bomb that would have been carried by the spaceplane designed by Eugen Sänger was to have been composed of blankets of radioactive silica.

[ewest89]

That is only one possibility. There is a photo of the engine for the Saenger bomber being test fired. The original plan was to place the bomber on a monorail near the ground. Behind it were two V-2 rocket engines in pods. The monorail was 1.4 kilometers long and gradually tilted toward 5 degrees. The takeoff weight of the bomber was 100 tons, 90% being fuel. The V-2 rocket engines would ignite, one after the other. When exhausted, the Saenger bomber would ignite its engine, attaining a speed of Mach 17. It would level off at the top of the atmosphere and skip-glide toward its target, New York City. At the appropriate location, one atomic bomb would be released, with a destruction area 4 kilometers across. The bomber would complete one orbit of the Earth and land somewhere in Germany as an unpowered glider.

There is evidence of atomic bomb tests by the Germans, and a captured drawing with German text that clearly shows the area of destruction. General Dornberger was no longer in charge near the end of the war. The SS were in complete control of the atomic bomb project, specifically, SS General Hans Kammler. Among his various appointments: head all of all rocket projects. The threat of this attack occurred in December, 1944.


"Preparing the American Public for a V-3 Attack - Dec 1944." L/C Box 223, USAF Microfilm Reel 43811. From the document:

"...V-3 threat. Intercontinental missile attack against the United States."

[T. A. Gardner]

Made of materials available at the time, the plane would have suffered sufficient thermal heating to cause catastrophic failure. Also, as Sanger wanted to use high temperature stainless steels, the weight of the plane would have been such that the amount of calculated thrust would have not been anywhere sufficient to make it work.
Then there's the whole engine / fuel problem. Germany at the time didn't possess--well, nobody did--the technology to make really high powered rocket engines and fuels to drive them. Alcohol and LOX was about as good as it got.
Then you have an aircraft that isn't area ruled. Good luck getting sonic in that...

The amount of unknowns in Sanger's idea, at the time, were immense. Visionary? Yes. Realistic? No.

Basically, it was a delusion / fantasy idea, not a realistic one.

[ewest89]

You lack sufficient knowledge to draw any of your conclusions. A wind tunnel model was built. The Germans were well aware of high speeds and thermal heating. After the war, General Dornberger proposed the Saenger bomber to Lawrence D. Bell of Bell Aircraft. A proposal for Bo-Mi (Bomber-Missile) was sent to the Air Force in 1952. Much later, after astronauts had been selected, construction of the X-20 Dyna-Soar began at Boeing. The project was cancelled by the Kennedy administration.

[T. A. Gardner]

You lack sufficient knowledge to draw any of your conclusions. A wind tunnel model was built. The Germans were well aware of high speeds and thermal heating. After the war, General Dornberger proposed the Saenger bomber to Lawrence D. Bell of Bell Aircraft. A proposal for Bo-Mi (Bomber-Missile) was sent to the Air Force in 1952. Much later, after astronauts had been selected, construction of the X-20 Dyna-Soar began at Boeing. The project was cancelled by the Kennedy administration.

So?

I know enough to know that you aren't going to fly something at hypersonic speeds using nothing but manual controls which is all Sanger had to work with in the 30's and 40's. I know enough to know that getting something moving at hypersonic speeds generates lots and lots of heat on whatever it is. I know enough to know that in flight at the edge of space you need something besides control surfaces like ailerons and a rudder to make maneuvers and course adjustments. I know that all-flying tail surfaces hadn't been invented so how do you control flight in the atmosphere at supersonic speeds?

As I said, Sanger's idea was visionary not realistic.

Aside from that, Germany didn't have an atomic weapon so using one on it is a moot point.

[ewest89]

Is this how you conduct research? By assumption? There are enough documents now available to show Germany did have an atomic bomb.

By establishing a conclusion first, you disallow any other information if it conflicts with your pre-drawn conclusion. For example, the X-20 was going into production. In your mind, it couldn't work even though it was based on the Saenger design. When the wind tunnel model of the Saenger bomber was tested during the war, what was he told? It won't work?

How about the engine? In an article published in the Air & Space Smithsonian in the August/September 1987 issue, the following is stated: "The engine was cooled by its own fuel, which circulated around the combustion chamber in a jacket of tubing, thereby absorbing heat. This engine produced exhaust velocities of some 10,000 feet per second; von Braun's V-2 engine had achieved only 6,560 feet per second."

The Germans had developed flight control for supersonic speeds. The V-2 rocket is proof of that. The X-15 flew with manual controls and had an engine that could be throttled. If you check its history, you will see references to the Saenger bomber.

[T. A. Gardner]

Is this how you conduct research? By assumption? There are enough documents now available to show Germany did have an atomic bomb.

No, there isn't. You just selectively want to believe there is such information. We've drug that subject out at length here and elsewhere.

By establishing a conclusion first, you disallow any other information if it conflicts with your pre-drawn conclusion. For example, the X-20 was going into production. In your mind, it couldn't work even though it was based on the Saenger design. When the wind tunnel model of the Saenger bomber was tested during the war, what was he told? It won't work?

The X-20 never even reached prototype status. There is no real proof it would have worked as advertised, like many projects of that era failed to do. Sanger's design was visionary, but the technical details and levels of technology at the time were far below what was needed to make it work. Wind tunnel testing alone, particularly limited wind tunnel testing at far below hypersonic speeds, doesn't provide any solid evidence the plane would have worked.

How about the engine? In an article published in the Air & Space Smithsonian in the August/September 1987 issue, the following is stated: "The engine was cooled by its own fuel, which circulated around the combustion chamber in a jacket of tubing, thereby absorbing heat. This engine produced exhaust velocities of some 10,000 feet per second; von Braun's V-2 engine had achieved only 6,560 feet per second."

How about it? What booster and fuel would be used to propel it down the launch track? At the time of its proposed design the only solid fuel available to the Germans was diglycol. There were several H202 and basic liquid fuels available. What would have propelled the plane once it launched? What engine did the Germans have that produced either the 600 tons thrust over 11 seconds or 100 tons the plane was proposed to have?

Those numbers work out to 120,000 lbf a second, or an engine about as powerful as the US Atlas ICBM used. Germany had nothing close to that by 1945. The plane's engine is not specific enough on details to figure out what kind of thrust it would have to produce. What fuel(s) were proposed?

The Germans had developed flight control for supersonic speeds. The V-2 rocket is proof of that. The X-15 flew with manual controls and had an engine that could be throttled. If you check its history, you will see references to the Saenger bomber.

No, that isn't proof. All the V-2 had was basic stability to keep it moving in a straight line using a couple of gyros. The Sanger plane had to make precise atmospheric reentries and "skip" back into the edge of space. How was the pilot going to do that with manual controls and no thrust vectoring?

The X-15 was fitted with attitude rockets (small thrusters) in the wings and nose to allow control on the edge of space. The Sanger plane had nothing like that. The reaction control system on the X-15 was independent of flight controls and a computerized stability assist system to maintain the aircraft's attitude correctly. The tail surfaces were all-flying wedges for use at hypersonic speeds. Again, the Sanger plane had none of that.



In the late 30's, Sanger's idea was visionary, but there was no way to make it work. Sanger also made a number of claims about having built rocket engines and testing them that were supposedly superior to the engine used on the V-2 before and during WW 2. I can find nothing on these or any evidence they actually existed and were tested.

[ewest89]

More assumptions. It is clear to me that all of your arguments must be steered to your preferred conclusion. It is also clear that you have personally invented answers. Read a few books. The X-20 had begun assembly at Boeing. It was cancelled by the Kennedy administration.

You should get US Hypersonic Research and Development: The Rise and Fall of 'Dyna-Soar', 1944-1963. This grossly mistitled book has little on actual research. It also includes the patently obvious: Walter Dornberger worked at Bell Aircraft. He presented the Saenger idea to Lawrence D. Bell. The materials included documents related to the A-4b and A-9/A-10, including photographs and motion picture film.

A manned version of the A-9 was proposed. German ICBMs existed. The mining of uranium occurred in Czechoslovakia during the war. It is obvious, I think to anyone other than you, that the United States was preparing for "intercontinental missile attack." There is CIOS report XXXII-125 which states "long range rockets for attacks against the United States."

Ignoring documents does not make them go away.

You might also consider getting this:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/385482350268?h ... R-LY2ZLVYg

[T. A. Gardner]

More assumptions. It is clear to me that all of your arguments must be steered to your preferred conclusion. It is also clear that you have personally invented answers. Read a few books. The X-20 had begun assembly at Boeing. It was cancelled by the Kennedy administration.

The X-20 and Sanger's Silverbird have nearly zero in common other than some tenuous connection from being suggested by ex-Nazis. The X-20 never flew and none were completed.

You should get US Hypersonic Research and Development: The Rise and Fall of 'Dyna-Soar', 1944-1963. This grossly mistitled book has little on actual research. It also includes the patently obvious: Walter Dornberger worked at Bell Aircraft. He presented the Saenger idea to Lawrence D. Bell. The materials included documents related to the A-4b and A-9/A-10, including photographs and motion picture film.

So? How many suggestions did the Bell company, or other companies get from a myriad of sources in that period? How many were acted on? Further development of the A-4 by the US was mostly done under Project Hermes headed by GE. Bell labs was focused on air defense and creating the Nike missile system at the time.

A manned version of the A-9 was proposed.

So? None were ever built or tried. There are thousands of proposed aircraft, missiles, whatever. Just because they were proposed doesn't mean they would actually work.

German ICBMs existed.

No, the Germans never built an ICBM.

The mining of uranium occurred in Czechoslovakia during the war.

So? Mining uranium is a far cry from managing to enrich it to 90% + needed for nuclear weapons.

It is obvious, I think to anyone other than you, that the United States was preparing for "intercontinental missile attack." There is CIOS report XXXII-125 which states "long range rockets for attacks against the United States."

So? The US, and Britain were both aware of the use of ballistic missiles like the A-4 and began studies for defense against them--multiple studies. Two obvious ones are the USAAF projects MX 794 Wizard, and MX 795 Thumper. The US knew nuclear weapons were viable, and began studies to see how to counter a ballistic missile carrying one.
That doesn't translate that there was an actual, existing, and current, threat to a ballistic missile attack on the US from Germany.

Ignoring documents does not make them go away.

Misinterpreting them as you do so frequently, is just as bad.

[ewest89]

No and So. Your replies are certainly not worth considering, except to point out how wrong they are. And illogical. Wernher von Braun, you would lead others to believe, along with 500 other rocket experts, came to the United States for no particular reason, according to you. They had nothing of value to contribute to the American rocket program, much less the American missile program, specifically, Surface to Air Missiles. I'm sure, if you had been there, you would have sent the lot back to Germany since America was doing better, superior work. You would have reviewed captured documents and shrugged. Those might as well have been discarded since America was in the lead in, well, everything.

Your knowledge seems to be bounded by the most repeated stories. And the idea that all of the secrets of the Third Reich had been laid bare shortly after the war. The V-1, the V-2, what else was there? According to you. Nothing. A word you like to use often.

Let me ask you, what were concentration camp inmates doing at the locations of various deeply buried installations? Nothing? They weren't helping to build special projects? Like building ICBM silos? According to you, no.

I know some are put off by German language books, but here's one in English that shows that what I'm presenting was not invented later.

"At the end of the war, Fiebinger brought his expertise to America, where he constructed underground launch pads for intercontinental nuclear ballistic missiles." Fiebinger worked for Sonderstab Kammler during the war. From page 134 of St. Georgen-Gusen-Mauthausen -- Concentration Camp Mauthausen Reconsidered by Rudolf A. Haunschmied, Jan-Ruth Mills and Siegi Witzany-Durda.