Intruder Operations Over England

[Desdichado]

I've read many works concerning the bombing of Germany by RAF Bomber Command. In several of the books, mention was made of RAF losses inflicted by Luftwaffe intruders who would attack the returning bombers as they were coming in to land or in the circuit. Others mention surprise attacks carried out by raiders who attacked the bombers on the ground before they could take off. I don't know how many RAF bombers were lost in this way but it doesn't look like the Luftwaffe fully exploited this tactic which, by all accounts, was successful when used. I've compiled a few questions that I hope someone will be able to answer.

Does anyone know why the Luftwaffe never formed a specialist unit dedicated to following the bomber stream home in order to strike when the British were most vulnerable? If so, who was responsible for its creation?

Presumably the Luftwaffe was able to replicate IFF to enable them to cross into British airspace with the bomber stream. Did the Luftwaffe fit any of its night-fighters with British IFF technology?

Luftwaffe signals knew when a raid was to take place by monitoring the signals broadcast by wireless operators when each bomber went through its pre-raid air test. Although the target could not readily be ascertained, the intruders could have been scrambled and on their way to eastern England, especially on the long winter nights when the RAF would often take off any time between eleven and midnight. RAF fighter command would have not been able to cover each airfield with a protective screen of night-fighters so the chances of a successful intruder operation were quite good.

By employing intruders in greater numbers than they did, the Luftwaffe might have prevented many bombers from getting anywhere their targets and would also cause panic and confusion on the ground. Granted, in the long run the British would have adopted counter measures to the intruders but there was a window of opportunity there for the Germans to strike a heavy blow against the RAF. I wonder why they didn't exploit it more than they did.

Regards - D

[Erich]

in 1941-42 NJG 2 with JU 88C's performed the function and were quite successful only to be roved on Hitlers order and sent to Italy.

March/April of 44 KG 51 Me 410A's were also very successful in invading England airspace and pursuing both RAF and US heavy bombers back to base. Again missins called off.

Several intruder ops by very small sections of Ju 88G-6's were taken over England airfields in 1945 the most concentrated was March 4/5 1945 and it continued into April of 45.

Intruders over Britain by Simon Parry is a good all around book to have covering most of the Luftw night intruder ops. I am working up my own title specifically covering all of 1945

Erich ~ also might want to do a google search

[Pips]

Thoe boiten's excellent book "Nachtjagd - The Night Fighter Versus Bomber War over the Thrid Reich 1939-45" has a chapter dedicated to the Intruder operation sover England.

The name given to night intruders was Fernnachtjagd.

When Kammhuber founded the Luftwaffe night fighter force he established two arms; that of the short range Nachtjagd operating over the Reich and the long-ranged Fernnachtjagd to hunt Bomber Command over it's bases in Britain. Kammhuber considered that the Fernnachtjagd would be the most effective arm in combatting Bomber Command.

II./NJG1 was designated on 17 July 1940 to fly intruder operations over the UK using modified Junkers Ju88 and Dornier Do17 bombers. Initially the Gruppe flew from Schiphol airfield, then from Spetember it operated from Gilze-Rijen airfield, being rechristened I./NJG2. The goal was to expand it to Geschwader strength, but between AUgust 1940 and October 1941 it rarely had more than 20 aircraft on strength. It didn't make a very auspicious start. By the end of 1940 it had claimed 8 aircraft detroyed for the loss of 21 of it's own - eleven to enemy action, the balance to accidents. A change in tactics lead to more intercepts being achieved over the (safer) North Sea as opposed to UK mainland, and claims increased. Betwwen January and October 1941 I./NJG1 claimed 125 enemy bombers destroyed, for the loss of 55 aircraft. Dozens more RAF bombers were damaged in attacks.

On 12 October however Hitler ordered Kammhuber to halt Fernnachtjagd operations over the UK and North Sea. Hitler gave two reasons, a) that if the Fernnachtjagd was really successful the RAF would have copied it by now and b) the German citizen would rather see enemy aircraft shot down in such a way as to see the enemy bomber lying next to his burnt house. A third reason lurking in the backgriound was that Kammhuber got no support from Luftwaffe High Command - who still did not take the looming threat of Bomber Command seriously.

Kammhiber tried to keep the experienced Fernnachtjagd Gruppe for use in radar-controlled GCI interceptions, but the ruppe was sent to the Mediterranean.

That effextively spealt the end of intruder operations over the UK. There were some very ad hoc missions organised by Peltz, but other than that nothing effectively happened until 1945 as Erice ha already mentioned.

[Alter Mann]

There was a discussion about the conflict between the Axis and the Allies over control of the air over the Bay of Biscay here a while back, but I can't find it. Can anyone remember the name and author of the book about this battle?

[Erich]

Chris Goss is the author I believe but the book really does not have anything to do with intruder ops, it is a defence of southern/western France ............

[WalterS]

During the early years of the RAF's night attacks the Luftwaffe employed "intruder" aircraft which attacked RAF bombers over their own airfields. In 1940-41, according to Max Hastings, these "intruders" had been responsible for two-thirds of the Luftwaffe's night-fighter victories. "[Luftwaffe General] Kammhuber was convinced that this promised to be the most effective means of causing casualties and chaos to the bomber offensive. Bomber Command shared his opinion." If the German "intruders" had been allowed to continue their operations, according to Hastings, the consequences for BC could have been severe.

But the "intruders" were not allowed to continue these successful operations. Why? Hitler ordered that these operations be abandoned because he "considered that only aircraft shot down over Germany were of value in convincing the German people that they were being defended." So, the Luftwaffe left the British airfields alone. Hastings believes that this was the greatest missed opportunity of the bomber war.

See Max Hastings, "Bomber Command," pp.266-270

[Erich]

well you just repeated what I stated above but whatever........

had the Fernenachtjagd cntinued there is an incredibly strong chance RAF bomber command flights would have been doomed to failure and 8th US bomber and the 9th US would never have been able to establish itself as every base would of been under close scrutiny. I have read and conversed with many RAF historians and of course their reply: jolly good show and be adaptable but that sounds quite a bit easier than in reality would would have been ........ every base in reality would of been bombed every evening if possible

[mars]

well you just repeated what I stated above but whatever........

had the Fernenachtjagd cntinued there is an incredibly strong chance RAF bomber command flights would have been doomed to failure and 8th US bomber and the 9th US would never have been able to establish itself as every base would of been under close scrutiny. I have read and conversed with many RAF historians and of course their reply: jolly good show and be adaptable but that sounds quite a bit easier than in reality would would have been ........ every base in reality would of been bombed every evening if possible

Erich, you shall not underestimated British, if Luftwafe continured their intrusion, RAF would be sure to make some counter-messure, just like blow and counter-blow between RAF bomber command and Luftwaffe night fighters over the Western Europe

[Erich]

Mars I have heard it all. it's a what-if anyway.

[mars]

Mars I have heard it all. it's a what-if anyway.

Erich, you obviously choosed to ignore them. the RAF bombing war, when one side figured out a new way, other side would soon find a counter-mesure, I bet same thing would occured over the Britian, no one was a fool, yes ? Between 1941-1942, the first phase of the Luftwaffe night intrusion over England, both RAF night bombing force and Luftwaffe night fighter force were in their infancy, but RAF bomber commander quicly managed the ability to launch a night bomb raid with hunderds even over thousand heavy bombers, at the same time, the Luftwaffe night fighter units only had limit number of night fighters, ( you could read the excellent book "other battle" by Peter Hinchliffe), to defend German cities and other ground targets, Luftwaffe had no choice but kept most of those limited night fighters at Western Europe, you do not want to abandon the whole sky over Germany to RAF heavy bombers, don't you ? so why is this "all the Hilter's fault" about ? how many Luftwaffe night fightes could then be spared to operated over England in the time period of 1941-1942 ? a squadron of size ? of course they could shot down a few RAF bombers, but could they shot down enough RAF bomber to a degree of make a difference ? I doubt it, and actually do not believe it. And DO NOT forget RAF night fighters, which was inflicting heavy losses among Luftwaffe night bombers AND night intruders over England at that time.
Erich, I bet you would not want to hear what I said above, but that doest not matter, as you said, it's a what-if anyway.

[Erich]

heard all your statements before many times. Ignoring them hardly, no one Allied historian has been able to counter my thoughts in reality........ what if it is....... there can be no concise details as to whom will be able to withstand the other
suggest you read Heinz Rökkers memories in I./NJG 2 a much more balanced acct then Peters work which is basic but covers all the details in some degree of the aerial war at night over the Reich. If Hitler and it was this poius fools fault had let the Fernachtjagd go for the gold, then every nf unit would of had at least 1 gruppe on the go over England, and the result would of been molre night gruppen forming for the task of assualting RAF and then US if they had been able to proceed airfields. History is a funny thing and unknowns there are a plenty.

[mars]

heard all your statements before many times. Ignoring them hardly, no one Allied historian has been able to counter my thoughts in reality........ what if it is....... there can be no concise details as to whom will be able to withstand the other
suggest you read Heinz Rökkers memories in I./NJG 2 a much more balanced acct then Peters work which is basic but covers all the details in some degree of the aerial war at night over the Reich. If Hitler and it was this poius fools fault had let the Fernachtjagd go for the gold, then every nf unit would of had at least 1 gruppe on the go over England, and the result would of been molre night gruppen forming for the task of assualting RAF and then US if they had been able to proceed airfields. History is a funny thing and unknowns there are a plenty.

Erich,
1) dare to ask,do you how many luftwaffe night fighter units available between 1941 and 1942 ? and do you know their strength ?
2) let assume each luftwafe nf committed at least "1 gruppe on the go over England", well, could it be teeny, tiny possibilty that RAF night fighter units would have a field day ? Then today's historian wold say "Hilter was such a fool that he committed so many night fighter over England and suffered such great losses, if he only kept those fighter over Western Europe, then blah, blah blah"

"Sir, you just sit tight, and I would go behind of you, hit your head with a stick and you would drop dead and I will win !"

[Jon G.]

...But the "intruders" were not allowed to continue these successful operations. Why? Hitler ordered that these operations be abandoned because he "considered that only aircraft shot down over Germany were of value in convincing the German people that they were being defended." So, the Luftwaffe left the British airfields alone. Hastings believes that this was the greatest missed opportunity of the bomber war.

See Max Hastings, "Bomber Command," pp.266-270

Hitler's reasons for the cancellation of the night intruder missions as you quote them from Hastings may have been relevant from a 1943 point of view. At that time the Germans may not have had the necessary resources in fuel, trained aircrew etc. to mount large-scale intruder missions at the expense of other operations.

But the intruder missions were cancelled already in 1941, too early to call it a missed opportunity. The RAF's bombing campaign did not yet have very serious effects at the time. Nobody knows how the flow of events might have gone if there had been continuous Luftwaffe intruder missions 1941-1943, but odds are that another measure vs. counter-measure sub-branch of the tech war would have developed. If the Luftwaffe had wanted to re-introduce large scale night intruder missions in 1943 they would have been a full two years behind in technological and operational development.

Also see this thread:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=95708

[mars]

I agree, Jon, and do not forget that Luftwaffe only had a handfull of night fighter gruppen in 1941, so there were not much night fighter could be spared at that time. Besides, I am surprised to know if anybody believes the intrusion of Luftwaffe night fighters could hinder US bombing of Germany, let us face it, US committed their bombing missions in daylight, so that most of US heavy bombers took off and landed in the daytime, sending Luftwaffe night fighter over England in day time would be equal to commit suicide, even fool like Hilter would not dare to try this idea

[Erich]

you are missing an important point in what I was trying to say.

First B-17's were followed back in April of 44 during dusk hours (a very long mission), and were slaughtered by KG 51 Me 410A's.

the main feature is if the Fernenacht would of been given cleareance to bomb and strafe and of course grow beyone NJG 2 and 3's meagre Ju 88C force(s) the bombing would of plowed up airfield after airfield and the US bomber formations would not of been able to start up ops.

obviously it never happened and we all can agree to disagree until we are blue in the face. Woudl RAF night fighters been able to oppose the forces, well they did not do much in 41-42 to speak of as the Ju 88C's flew close to tree top height on their way to blasting airfields and RAF heavies.

Luftw nf forces were used in later 43 and winter/spring of 44 to help the day fighters counter the tons of US B-17/B-24 formations and yes they were popped pretty easily from the skies with all the weight of heavy radar, cannon and even the NF's were fitted with the heavy Br 21cm on the Bf 110G-4's. What a slow piece of junk having a difficult time even catching US bombers on the flat out