Did Goering or Hitler fly over England during the War?

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John P. Doyle
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Did Goering or Hitler fly over England during the War?

#1

Post by John P. Doyle » 07 Nov 2006, 04:47

Hello Friends,

This curiosity has been in the back of my mind for many years.

I recall reading as a child that sometime during the War (not necessarily during the Battle of Britain) there were reports of an unidentified German aircraft which was flying very high over southern England. It was conspicuous because it was emitting condensation trails (contrails), such as seen from modern jets at high altitude, but unusual with aircraft at that time. There was speculation that this may have been a "tourist flight" for some high-level figure of the Third Reich. Whether such a flight happened more than once, I have no idea. From memory, the aircraft was noted overflying the town of Histon, near Cambridge.

Unfortunately, I have no more knowledge than this.

Does anyone know anything more?

Thanks in advance.

John.

Denniss
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#2

Post by Denniss » 08 Nov 2006, 05:35

I'd say that was a high alt recce mission.


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redcoat
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Re: Did Goering or Hitler fly over England during the War?

#3

Post by redcoat » 08 Nov 2006, 14:58

John P. Doyle wrote:Hello Friends,

This curiosity has been in the back of my mind for many years.

I recall reading as a child that sometime during the War (not necessarily during the Battle of Britain) there were reports of an unidentified German aircraft which was flying very high over southern England. It was conspicuous because it was emitting condensation trails (contrails), such as seen from modern jets at high altitude, but unusual with aircraft at that time.
The Luftwaffe did have a high level reconnaissance aircraft during this period, the Junkers Ju 86P.
This was most likely the aircraft that these reports were about, as it operated above the maximum operational height of RAF fighters
There was speculation that this may have been a "tourist flight" for some high-level figure of the Third Reich.
There is no evidence that this aircraft was ever used for that type of mission.
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#4

Post by Huck » 08 Nov 2006, 23:47

Hi John,

All aircraft flying at high altitude leave long condensation trails, regardless of whether they are piston or jet powered. B-17s flying at 30,000 have long contrails. It was most likely a high altitude recce plane. Junkers made many types.

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John P. Doyle
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#5

Post by John P. Doyle » 11 Nov 2006, 04:17

Thanks to the three of you for your input. Much appreciated. More thoughts welcome!

John.

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Sewer King
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Re: Did Goering or Hitler fly over England during the War?

#6

Post by Sewer King » 11 Nov 2006, 06:17

John P. Doyle wrote:There was speculation that this may have been a "tourist flight" for some high-level figure of the Third Reich.
Considering Hitler's outrage over Rudolf Hess' flight, I doubt that any leading German figure would have overflown the UK. I seem to remember that the Führer forbade his leadership from flying their own planes, as various of them were qualified pilots, although this was not so much in fear of their defection.

Any such high-ranking figure, civil or military, would more likely be satisfied with the reconnaissance photography and not risked the capture of his person. Although a general such as Erwin Rommel liked to overfly the terrain in which he would operate, this would scarcely have benefitted any one such official or officer in planning for the invasion of Britain.

As a distant comparison, General Curtis LeMay of US 21st Bomber Command was not allowed to fly with bombing missions over Japan because he was privy to the atom bomb secret.

Fortification of southern Britain would naturally have made for sensitivity to high-altitude intruders, but I can't think of why this particular report might be suspected of a high-ranking passenger.

It would be interesting to know just how much or how often the Luftwaffe flew recce missions over the UK during particular periods, such as the buildup to OVERLORD. Certainly the FORTITUDE operation gave them things to look at. It might also be of some interest to find out what installations were in the Cambridge area, or what deception operations if any might have been carried out there.

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#7

Post by Potsdamerplatz » 12 Nov 2006, 02:24

Considering Hitler's outrage over Rudolf Hess' flight, I doubt that any leading German figure would have overflown the UK. I seem to remember that the Führer forbade his leadership from flying their own planes, as various of them were qualified pilots, although this was not so much in fear of their defection.
Heydrich also flew with the Luftwaffe as a reserve officer and was shot down over the Russian front in 1941. Imagine if he had fallen into Soviet hands....

On July 22, 1941, his plane was badly damaged over Yampol by Soviet AA artillery. Heydrich managed to crash-land in no-man's land, and run back to the German lines. After this adventure he was forbidden to fly once again, as it was realized that Heydrich's capture as a POW would be a major security breach for Germany, and he never again returned to active flying.


Best regards,

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Peter H
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#8

Post by Peter H » 12 Nov 2006, 04:17

Eisenhower's recon flight over the St.Lo battlefield,50 miles into enemy territory:

http://www.354th.com/

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Sewer King
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#9

Post by Sewer King » 12 Nov 2006, 07:31

Potsdamerplatz wrote:Heydrich managed to crash-land in no-man's land, and run back to the German lines. After this adventure he was forbidden to fly once again, as it was realized that Heydrich's capture as a POW would be a major security breach for Germany, and he never again returned to active flying.
Who forbade him to fly again? It could only have been the Führer?

And this only a few months after Hess' flight to Scotland. I don't have my copy of Inside the Third Reich at hand, but in it I think Albert Speer mentioned Hitler prohibiting his senior men from flying planes themselves. Even if so, that might not have absolutely prevented it from happening. But if Hitler had in fact ordered such a thing, the downing of Heydrich should have been some cause for unpleasant words from him.

Out of side curiosity, didn't Himmler himself hold a pilot's badge in diamonds? I seem to remember from an article in Militaria magazine that he was a recipient of that high presentation.

-----------------------------------------

I had forgotten about Ike's observer flight too. Senior generals may do as they please within their command, and take such risks no more than they think necessary. But Rommel flew observation as some matter of course and preference, while it isn't clear to me (yet, maybe) how much more operational insight Ike could get from the cramped back seat. Though it did make a fine impression on the airmen involved.

----------------------------------------

Back to the original idea, is there some chance a late-war German recon plane reported in this area could have been an Arado Ar 234 jet? That plane in its photo role was tasked with helping to correct V-weapon attacks. It may be a thin academic chance if one really wanted to consider such a thing, since this is based on a general memory. But I haven't looked at a map of southern Britain, nor looked up where or when Ar 234s were based for these flights.

Fascinating plane, the Blitz. I finally got to see it up close at the recent annex to the US National Air and Space museum.

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John P. Doyle
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#10

Post by John P. Doyle » 12 Nov 2006, 22:37

Thank you all for those stimulating contributions. Plenty of good material there. May we should open a file on Luftwaffe recce flights over England, with emphasis on their "operational" aspects i.e. frequency, purpose, crewing, altitude etc.

Thanks again to you all.

John.

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#11

Post by Heinrich George » 17 Nov 2006, 21:37

Shirer's Berlin Diary entry for September 23, 1940 reads in part:

Last night an old German acquaintance dropped in on me. He's in the Luftwaffe now and for the last three weeks has been a member of the crew of a night bomber which has been working on London. He had some interesting details.

<snip>

7. Goring did fly over London, he asserts. This news was given the foreign press here, but withheld from the German papers, which made us suspicious of it.

The diary entry covers two full pages, much of it equally false information. Unfortunately, some people may accept it as fact. More than likely the person who visited Shirer was someone from the propaganda ministry.

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Re: Did Goering or Hitler fly over England during the War?

#12

Post by Cantankerous » 19 May 2022, 03:48

There's a September 1940 New York Times article claiming that Hermann Goering flew a plane over London to inspect the damage to the city by Luftwaffe aircraft:
https://www.nytimes.com/1940/09/17/arch ... -have.html

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