Could the Luftwaffe have flown Hitler to Japan in 1945?

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John P. Doyle
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Could the Luftwaffe have flown Hitler to Japan in 1945?

#1

Post by John P. Doyle » 12 Nov 2006, 22:49

Hello Friends,

Another query about Luftwaffe flight capability:

Would it have been technically possible for the Luftwaffe to have flown Hitler (or other senior Nazis) from Europe to Japan before the end of the War? Did they have any aircraft which could have flown from northern Norway (still in German hands) over the Polar Route to Japan in a non-stop flight? If so, which aircraft, and what would have been the operational profile of such a flight i.e. duration, altitude etc? (Do we have any airline pilots amongst us?)

Obviously, this idea is good material for "fiction", but I was wondering if it might have any basis in "fact".

Best wishes to you all.

John.

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dabbydo
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#2

Post by dabbydo » 12 Nov 2006, 23:44

I suppose anything is possible, but Japan certainly wasn't in the best of shape by 1945 either. Out of the frying pan and into the fire?

Dave


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Sewer King
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#3

Post by Sewer King » 13 Nov 2006, 02:09

The six-engined Junkers Ju 390 often comes up as Hitler's escape plane, apparently from aircraft author William Green's landmark book Warplanes of the Third Reich (New York: Doubleday, 1970). His entry on that huge plane mentions a German radio report that the plane had been ready to evacuate the Führer if necessary.

Green's book is still an excellent source, and has seen some reprint. But like other leading WW2-related works of its time, it has been followed up and improved upon in various ways. The Ju 390 allegation was not detailed further and when re-read closely, not claimed as certain by Green.

And of course, the Ju 390 had been much debated here, in this forum.

Fleeing the country is an admission of defeat in and of itself, and Hitler was not one to make admissions of that size and publicity. Considering how he refused even to leave Berlin, it was even less likely that he could be convinced:

to make an escape, with its own risks,
to a foreign ally that no longer trusted in his power,
that was quite literally suffering its own fiery defeat,
where he would have been a powerless figure,
with no future even assuming his survival,
except as that of a hunted and hated man,
and dependent on those hiding him.

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#4

Post by Andreas » 13 Nov 2006, 12:06

The great circle distance from e.g. Narvik to Sapporo in northern Japan is 'only' 6,900km, so well within the range of a Ju 390. So technically it could have been done.

My guess is that such a flight would have been a bit longer, but still well within range, taking a dog-leg out to Spitzbergen before turning east, in order to avoid flying along the coast of northern Norway, which was at this point occupied by the Red Army. Once over the Barents Sea, climb to cruise height, sit back while flying over the mostly empty space that is Siberia, and start worrying again when you get towards the Pacific Coast.

Map and other information from http://gc.kls2.com/

All the best

Andreas
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Great Circle Map - NVK-SPK
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John P. Doyle
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#5

Post by John P. Doyle » 13 Nov 2006, 21:38

Dear Andreas,

Thank you for that fascinating information, and for taking the trouble to copy the map.

There is plenty of scope here for a good book - it could be a great story!

Thanks again.

John.

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#6

Post by HistorianSr » 16 Nov 2006, 03:17

The Italians flew to Tokyo during the war. http://www.comandosupremo.com/Triumph.html

It would have been possible for the Luftwaffe to fly the Arctic route to Japan.



HSr

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John P. Doyle
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#7

Post by John P. Doyle » 16 Nov 2006, 03:54

A very interesting angle on the topic. Thank you for providing that link. A fascinating article.

Much appreciated.

John.

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#8

Post by Andreas » 16 Nov 2006, 15:33

HistorianSr wrote:The Italians flew to Tokyo during the war. http://www.comandosupremo.com/Triumph.html

It would have been possible for the Luftwaffe to fly the Arctic route to Japan.



HSr
That article has some flaws though - check the text below against the map, and then tell me why you would go via southern Bulgaria, northern Turkey, and the Caspian Sea:
Further flights would have to employed the new Fiat G.12 RT, but the difficulties created by the Japanese concerning the Southern route (From Rome to the Island of Rhodes, then proceeding non-stop over southern Bulgaria, northern Turkey, Caspian Sea, north-eastern Iran, Afghanistan, flying south of the Himalaya Mountains, over the Gulf of Bengal, finally reaching Rangoon) and with securing adequate radio and navigational aids (especially in Rangoon), delayed things until on 17 November 1942 the Italian Government (and the Regia Aeronautica) decided to put an end to the whole project.
All the best

Andreas
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Flight path Rhodes-Rangoon
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John P. Doyle
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#9

Post by John P. Doyle » 16 Nov 2006, 20:34

Andreas, thanks for another stimulating contribution.

I really like our Italian friends, but I think this project might have been better left in German hands!

Thanks again.

John.

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Scarlett
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#10

Post by Scarlett » 17 Nov 2006, 17:12

January 18, 1942 a convention was signed by Germany, Italy and Japan concerning military cooperation. Therein was among other topics envisaged a cooperation with the aim to establish a military air connection between Germany, Italy and Japan.
In Germany immediately after the signing of the convention preparations started. Because of their superior experience Lufthansa was given the task to study the problem.
Lufthansa stated, that two types of aircraft could be used: The BV 222 flying boat and the FW 200 Condor. Lufthansa didn't trust the engines of the Condor to survive the overload take-offs necessary for the long distance and proposed a service Kirkenes (Norway)- Sachalin-Japan.
The German foreign minister Ribbentrop favored the project, but Goering strongly opposed, mainly because there were too few BV 222 available, and Hitler was indifferent. He didn't want a record- or propaganda-flight but was only interested, when a regular service was possible.
After the Italian flight in 1942 the project was renewed, but now the Japanese strongly opposed any route crossing territory of the Soviet Union (because of the neutrality agreement between Japan and SU). Japan proposed the route North Africa or Rhodos - Rangoon or Bangkok - Manila - Tokio. This only the BV 222 could have done, but Luftwaffe opposed again.
In July 1943 the Japanese tried it, but failed.
In October 1943 Lufthansa presented another study, which foresaw the use of the Ju 290. In January/February 1944 three Ju 290 were prepared for a flight Finland - Sachalin and overload take-offs were tested. When the Japanese strongly insisted not to cross Northern Siberia, the project was scrapped and the aircraft given to KG 200 for special missions.
In summer 1944 again a new project was set up - on initiative of the Japanese embassy in Berlin- to transport the new air attaché, major general Kessler, and six technical specialists via Sachalin to Japan, this time the route foresaw going north of Siberia to the Bering Strait and from there south to Sachalin, but in October 1944 the Japanese Foreign Minstry informed the embassy in Berlin, that they didn't trust the Germans not to cross Siberia, when the crew was actually under way, as the route was much shorter. Kessler should either be sent via the "Southern Route" by flying boat or by sub. Again the project was stopped.

In April 1945 for a last time the Germans prepared a Ju 290 and told the Japanese, the aircraft would fly from Bardufoss (Norway) - Finnish airfields being not available anymore - directly via the North Pole to the Bering Strait and then south to Paramushiro. In case of an emergency the crew would go to Alaska, not to the Soviet Union. As the astronavigation in the Polar area was very difficult either April 28, or May 20 or June 15 1945, each of the days plus/minus three days, would be suitable for the flight. There was no answer from Japan on this proposal anymore.
On May 2, 1945 Luftwaffe tried to transfer the aircraft from Travemuende to Norway, the British tanks being only some miles from Travemuende. The take-off failed due to engine-problems and on May 3 the Ju 290 was blown up.
That is in short words the history of the German projects to fly to Japan.

If there is interest, I could give a short account of the Italian and Japanese projects too.
Last edited by Scarlett on 17 Nov 2006, 20:44, edited 1 time in total.

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#11

Post by Andreas » 17 Nov 2006, 20:38

Scarlett - thank you very much for the information. In the future however, please do refrain from using the term 'japs'. It is derogatory, and violates forum rules.

Thank you.

All the best

Andreas

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#12

Post by Scarlett » 17 Nov 2006, 20:46

Sorry!
It wasn't meant that way.
I just used the term as abbreviation.
I've changed the message.

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#13

Post by Andreas » 17 Nov 2006, 23:57

No problem - English slang is not always easy to decipher for non-native speakers. And in this particular case, even native speakers have had problems in the past.

Thanks for changing the message.

All the best

Andreas

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Sewer King
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#14

Post by Sewer King » 18 Nov 2006, 05:35

Sewer King wrote:The six-engined Junkers Ju 390 often comes up as Hitler's escape plane, apparently from aircraft author William Green's landmark book Warplanes of the Third Reich (New York: Doubleday, 1970). His entry on that huge plane mentions a German radio report that the plane had been ready to evacuate the Führer if necessary.

Green's book is still an excellent source, and has seen some reprint. But like other leading WW2-related works of its time, it has been followed up and improved upon in various ways. The Ju 390 allegation was not detailed further and when re-read closely, not claimed as certain by Green.
I checked Green and found I was partly mistaken -- Green mentions the Me 264, not the Ju 390, as supposedly ready at Lechfeld for Hitler's escape if "rebel generals had gained the upper hand" after July 20, 1944. Even if such a claim had been made over German radio, I don't understand why the trouble should have been taken for it. The plot had been to assassinate him, not simply to unseat him.

Unless, it was simply good propaganda to say what they supposedly were prepared to do.
John P. Doyle wrote:Obviously, this idea is good material for "fiction"...
I haven't seen the fanciful manga stories of Luftwaffe '46 for some time. The Ju 390 or Me 264 might have been brought to graphic-novel life in these.

Some conspiratorial speculation about German atom bomb efforts might be taken as fiction, involving those two planes. Friedrich Georg's Hitler's Miracle Weapons: Secret Nuclear Weapons of the Third Reich and their Carrier Systems, volume 1: the Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine (West Midlands, UK: Helion Co Ltd, 2003, 127 pages). Originally published as Hitlers Siegwaffen, Band 1: Luftwaffe und Marine (AMUN-Verlag & Agentur Pegasus, 2000)

In this book, the Ju 390 is imagined as a A-bomb platform painted in joint German and Japanese markings.

I get some impression that a few in Japan also tend to make so much of German-Japanese A-bomb work. But it seems hard to sustain a fictional story of Hitler escaping to Japan. Incidentally Hitler did not seem the best or most natural air passenger, at least according to Albert Speer. If so, he might have been hell for a trans-Siberian flight.

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Re:

#15

Post by Cantankerous » 19 May 2022, 03:41

Sewer King wrote:
18 Nov 2006, 05:35
Sewer King wrote:The six-engined Junkers Ju 390 often comes up as Hitler's escape plane, apparently from aircraft author William Green's landmark book Warplanes of the Third Reich (New York: Doubleday, 1970). His entry on that huge plane mentions a German radio report that the plane had been ready to evacuate the Führer if necessary.

Green's book is still an excellent source, and has seen some reprint. But like other leading WW2-related works of its time, it has been followed up and improved upon in various ways. The Ju 390 allegation was not detailed further and when re-read closely, not claimed as certain by Green.
I checked Green and found I was partly mistaken -- Green mentions the Me 264, not the Ju 390, as supposedly ready at Lechfeld for Hitler's escape if "rebel generals had gained the upper hand" after July 20, 1944. Even if such a claim had been made over German radio, I don't understand why the trouble should have been taken for it. The plot had been to assassinate him, not simply to unseat him.

Unless, it was simply good propaganda to say what they supposedly were prepared to do.
John P. Doyle wrote:Obviously, this idea is good material for "fiction"...
I haven't seen the fanciful manga stories of Luftwaffe '46 for some time. The Ju 390 or Me 264 might have been brought to graphic-novel life in these.

Some conspiratorial speculation about German atom bomb efforts might be taken as fiction, involving those two planes. Friedrich Georg's Hitler's Miracle Weapons: Secret Nuclear Weapons of the Third Reich and their Carrier Systems, volume 1: the Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine (West Midlands, UK: Helion Co Ltd, 2003, 127 pages). Originally published as Hitlers Siegwaffen, Band 1: Luftwaffe und Marine (AMUN-Verlag & Agentur Pegasus, 2000)

In this book, the Ju 390 is imagined as a A-bomb platform painted in joint German and Japanese markings.

I get some impression that a few in Japan also tend to make so much of German-Japanese A-bomb work. But it seems hard to sustain a fictional story of Hitler escaping to Japan. Incidentally Hitler did not seem the best or most natural air passenger, at least according to Albert Speer. If so, he might have been hell for a trans-Siberian flight.
I highly doubt that Hitler would have fled to Japan on a Luftwaffe plane in the event of his overthrow. He would have simply flown to his hometown in Linz in an Fw 200 or Ju 52, rather than flee to Japan.

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