Zero designs copied from western fighters?

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Ironmachine
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Re: Zero designs copied from western fighters?

#16

Post by Ironmachine » 22 May 2008, 14:12

Tim Smith wrote:I'm just pointing out how the B5N could also have been a topic for American propaganda.
There is a great difference between "copying" a concept and copying an actual aircraft model. The first is so tenous that it is almost useless for propaganda purposes (and it can be easily used both ways), while the second stands in firmer ground. AFAIK nobody said that the Japanese copied the "Zero" concept (a one-seat monoplane fighter, with a radial engine, a radio, carrier landing equipment, folding wings, and retractable landing gear), but that the "Zero" was actually an improved copy (or a derivative) of a particular aircraft model.
And perhaps an even more compelling reason not to use the B5N case for propaganda could be that the TBD was relatively well known, so the obvious differences of both aircraft were quite evident (at least for the military). On the other hand, the Vought V-143 was (and is) relatively unknown, so that any claim of the "Zero" being copied from it was easier to be believed.

Ju 87
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Re: Zero designs copied from western fighters?

#17

Post by Ju 87 » 21 Jun 2008, 09:01

Unsure if copied...but the zero differed from say BF109/spitfire, by eliminating the wing or root from bolting to the fuselage, and thus carrying the load typically placed at this point along the entire wing...a quick difference was the fuselage of a 109 had the wings bolts/mounted to the roots...on a zero, the wing actually ran through the fuselage...and the pilots feet rested on the top of the wing inside the cockpit...tips of wings where made foldable to allow elevators/space on carriers to be utilized..but by doing this design, a much higher load could be placed on the wing in a turn, as the entire load from the wing would not be directly transfered upon the wing-root


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Re: Zero designs copied from western fighters?

#18

Post by Topspeed » 03 Jul 2008, 11:14

In Aviator the movie Di Caprio says they copied ZERO from my HH-1 racer.

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Re: Zero designs copied from western fighters?

#19

Post by Tony Williams » 03 Jul 2008, 20:36

Hollywood being the utlimate arbiter of accurate knowledge :roll:

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Topspeed
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Re: Zero designs copied from western fighters?

#20

Post by Topspeed » 04 Jul 2008, 12:22

Tony Williams wrote:Hollywood being the utlimate arbiter of accurate knowledge :roll:
I am pretty well oriented with airplanes and especially fighters of WW II and some 10 years ago Vought V-143 was under study. I see no similarities with that and Zero-sen.

But I know for fact that before F8F was designed the FW 190A was intensively studied by the USAF designers and result was a formidable nimble and fast fighter.

But I agree...I have seen no proof for the fact that Hughes claimed Zero to be copied his design, but he did claim that P-38 was copy of his earlier model of X-11 and it possibly was...even though Kelly Johnson was a genious AC designer.

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Re: Zero designs copied from western fighters?

#21

Post by AL Schlageter » 04 Jul 2008, 15:36

Topspeed wrote: But I agree...I have seen no proof for the fact that Hughes claimed Zero to be copied his design, but he did claim that P-38 was copy of his earlier model of X-11 and it possibly was...even though Kelly Johnson was a genious AC designer.
Wasn't the XF-11, and the XF-12, designed to a 1943 proposal?

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Michael Emrys
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Re: Zero designs copied from western fighters?

#22

Post by Michael Emrys » 04 Jul 2008, 15:43

Any discussion exclusively about Allied aircraft belongs in that sub-forum. Please keep this thread on topic.

Michael
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Re: Zero designs copied from western fighters?

#23

Post by Lkefct » 11 Jul 2008, 03:48

http://www.theplanpage.com/Months/2105/ ... v1433v.tif

I can see some superficial resemblances, but there is not a lot of that image that suggests that it is anything close to what a Zero was. You can see elements of a lot of different radial engine planes of the era in a Zero if you look hard enough.

IN the official US history of the Invasion of the Philippines it quotes McArthur as being convinced that the Japanese where using western planes and pilots as the only way that the Japanese could have possibly wiped out the USAAF in the Phillipines. A lot of racist views where running amok at that point.

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Re: Zero designs copied from western fighters?

#24

Post by phylo_roadking » 11 Sep 2008, 03:24

....rather than admit that his own strategic errors in the use and organisation of USAAF air assets in the islands had contributed considerably to their destruction! :lol:

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Re: Zero designs copied from western fighters?

#25

Post by David_Aiken » 12 Sep 2008, 17:40

Late in the night of December 7, 1941, on Oahu, Lt. Col. T.H. Davies, G-2, sent out the message:
"To all units. Flash. Identification of enemy aircraft. All identifications possible from enemy planes brought down during the day identified the occupants as Japanese....One plane brought down in the south sector was identified as a German made Heinkel 113." This was Zero AI-154.

So much for myths...

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Re: Zero designs copied from western fighters?

#26

Post by David_Aiken » 12 Sep 2008, 17:43

In 1941 in Hawaii, Lt. Col. B.F. Lewis helped start the myth that the Zero and its engine were copies of American technology. He said, "Airplane: Good copy of Vultee made in 1936 for export." in reference to the Vultee Vanguard then used in China. The engine, Lewis suggested, was "a good copy of Pratt and Whitney 1535, with the reduction gear and about 650 horsepower."

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Re: Zero designs copied from western fighters?

#27

Post by Chromeboomerang » 13 Sep 2008, 05:56

I read somewhere the Zero untilized aluminum in the wings for lightweight construction, but that it made the wings warble in snaproll.



Because of wing flexibility, roll effectiveness dropped to near zero at about 300 mph indicated airspeed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A6M_Zero

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Re: Zero designs copied from western fighters?

#28

Post by Ome_Joop » 13 Sep 2008, 11:11

I don't know the word untilized but reading from the same wiki page (hey it's wiki afterall) i see this line:
Most of the airplane was built of T-7178 aluminum, a top-secret aluminum alloy developed by the Japanese just for this aircraft.It was lighter and stronger than the normal aluminum used at the time, but more brittle.


It does a bit contradict the wing flexibility but ok.
Roll-rate at speed is hard to find on the net but just saying that roll-rate dropped to near zero (i can't imagine that was the case) because of wing flexibility?! I guess wing design had lot to do with it (the A6M3 model 32 HAMP for instance had clipped wings to increase dive and roll speed). The Zero rolled better to the left than to the right (at any speed) but that is something wich is (single) engine related. The Zero's performance increased during the years (so i wonder the generalisation of wich Zero wiki talks about in that part, an fighter that can do 350mph but can't roll???).

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Re: Zero designs copied from western fighters?

#29

Post by Ome_Joop » 13 Sep 2008, 11:34

Did the japanes copy their aluminum?

What aluminum did they normaly use for aircraft (duraluminum is 2024?).
http://www.aerospacemetals.com/aluminum.html

Chromeboomerang
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Re: Zero designs copied from western fighters?

#30

Post by Chromeboomerang » 13 Sep 2008, 20:19

Saburo Sakai rolled his repeatedely in his fight with 15 Hellcats. It certaily will roll, but it is known to have it's controls stiffen up quite a bit at high speeds. The warble thing is interesting, but I don't know how much of an isue that would've been.

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