Ju-87 dive bombers v B-17 Flying Fortresses?

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Graham Clayton
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Ju-87 dive bombers v B-17 Flying Fortresses?

#1

Post by Graham Clayton » 04 Jul 2008, 13:56

I was watching the DVD "Legends of the Air - Boeing B17 - Flying Fortress" which mentioned the daylight raids on the Schweinfurt ball-bearing factories. The DVD stated that the Luftwaffe launched every available aircraft against the US bombers, including Ju-87 dive bombers. The DVD stated that the Ju-87s would dive from above onto the US B-17 formations, release their bombs, and hope to score a direct hit.

Was this a "one-off", or were Ju-87's used regularly against US daylight bombers? Were there other non-fighters or obsolete aircraft that were used by the Luftwaffe in the latter stages of the war in the home fighter defence role?
"Air superiority is a condition for all operations, at sea, in land, and in the air." - Air Marshal Arthur Tedder.

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Re: Ju-87 dive bombers v B-17 Flying Fortresses?

#2

Post by BillD53A » 04 Jul 2008, 18:18

The US Air Force was the first, ever,to conduct a sustained high-altitude strategic bombing campaign. The Luftwaffe was the first to try to defend against such a campaign. Neither went into the war knowing how to do it...no one ever did it before. They both had to develop tactics as they went along. I am sure the Luftwaffe tried to drop bombs on the bomber formations. It was not a standard tactic, though.
The maximum altitude of a Ju87 was just above 26,000 feet. It was designed to do its job at 15000 feet. It might have been able to go higher but it would not have been very useful at the altitudes the Americans flew. The B24 Liberator could fly higher, but they became hard to control above 24000 feet. The B17s flew at 26000 feet or higher. I dont think a Ju87 could have gone much higher than that.
The Ju87 dive-bombed on auto pilot, in case the pilot blacked out The pilot set the plane up to fly at 15,000 feet then pressed a button. The plane went into its dive, dropped the bomb, and pulled out of the dive automatically. The JU87 could only do its job as long as the Luftwaffe maintained aerial supremecy. They were no match for any fighter at all. That is the reason they were withdrawn from the Battle of Britain. They may have been used occasionally against the American bombers, but they would not have been able to do much damage.
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Tim Smith
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Re: Ju-87 dive bombers v B-17 Flying Fortresses?

#3

Post by Tim Smith » 12 Jul 2008, 12:13

Graham Clayton wrote:I was watching the DVD "Legends of the Air - Boeing B17 - Flying Fortress" which mentioned the daylight raids on the Schweinfurt ball-bearing factories. The DVD stated that the Luftwaffe launched every available aircraft against the US bombers, including Ju-87 dive bombers. The DVD stated that the Ju-87s would dive from above onto the US B-17 formations, release their bombs, and hope to score a direct hit.

Was this a "one-off", or were Ju-87's used regularly against US daylight bombers? Were there other non-fighters or obsolete aircraft that were used by the Luftwaffe in the latter stages of the war in the home fighter defence role?
This is wrong - Ju 87's never attacked a US heavy bomber formation.

What happened in reality, is that for a short period in 1943, German fighters flew above B-17 formations and dropped bombs, before diving down and attacking with their guns. The bombs were time-fused to go off shortly after being dropped - hopefully in the middle of a US bomber formation.

Since the B-17 crews didn't expect Bf 109s to be dropping bombs on them (the Americans had never imagined their own fighters attacking in that way) they thought the attacking aircraft must be Stukas.

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Re: Ju-87 dive bombers v B-17 Flying Fortresses?

#4

Post by phylo_roadking » 12 Jul 2008, 16:21

Actually on Mission 115 - the second Schweinfurt mission on October 14th - post-mission debriefings reported Ju-87s, Fw-189 tactical reconnaissance aircraft and even the experimental He- 100 fighter as having been spotted attacking! :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Ju-87 dive bombers v B-17 Flying Fortresses?

#5

Post by redcoat » 14 Jul 2008, 23:22

BillD53A wrote:The maximum altitude of a Ju87 was just above 26,000 feet. It was designed to do its job at 15000 feet. It might have been able to go higher but it would not have been very useful at the altitudes the Americans flew. The B24 Liberator could fly higher, but they became hard to control above 24000 feet. The B17s flew at 26000 feet or higher. I dont think a Ju87 could have gone much higher than that.
Another reason it never happened was the difference in speed between the two aircraft. The B17G had a top speed of 287mph and a cruising speed of 185 mph. while the Ju 87 only had a top speed of 190mph and a cruising speed of 118mph.
There was little to no chance of the Ju 87 being able to get into position above and ahead of the US bomber formation

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Re: Ju-87 dive bombers v B-17 Flying Fortresses?

#6

Post by BillD53A » 15 Jul 2008, 16:50

The original question was whether JU87s were routinely used to bomb B17s. The American bombers flew at, or above the Ju87's ceiling. The Luftwaffe did use aerial mines, radio-guided, and wire-guided, air-to-air bombs, and at least 2 types of air-to-air missles. Did the Luftwaffe drop bombs on B17s? Yes. Did Ju87s do it? I doubt it. Were Ju87s used to attack B17s? Probably. The Ju87 only had 2 guns in its wings. They could not do much damage, so why bother?
Was an FW189 used aginst the Americans? Probably, but again, why? The Americans flew above its ceiling, and it only carried two machine guns in the wings.
The HE100 lost the design competition to the BF109 in the 1930s. There were only 25 built, and 3 went to Japan. They were a better fighter than the 109 but there werent enough of them to mke a difference. There might have been some at Schweinfurt.
As far as using 'obsolete' types toward the end of the war-in 1944 the P51 Mustang began arriving in Europe. They were able to escort the bombers all the way to the targets. The Luftwaffe lost air superiority, and never regained it. My father flew 18 bombing missions out of Italy in 1944, and never saw a German fighter. The Luftwaffe was stopped by a lack of fuel. They had plenty of airplanes, and the planes they had were far better than anything the Americans had (ME262). What the Luftwaffe did not have was trained pilots, and they reason for this was that there was no fuel to train pilots with. According to the American Strategic Bomb Survey, the Luftwaffe took delivery of approximately 15,000 aircraft in 1942. That was BEFORE the American bombing began. The Luftwaffe took delivery of over 30,000 airplanes in 1944. AFTER the bombing campaign was underway. Deliveries in 1944 were around 3000 planes per month. Combat losses were only around 1000 planes per month. There were plenty of airplanes.
The Ju87 flew at a speed of 250 miles per hour. It had a ceiling of 26000 feet. The BF109, FW190, P47 and P51 all had top speeds near 400 mph, and ceilings near or above 40,000 feet. To try to use a JU87 aginst B17s would have been suicide. Why do it when there were plenty of fighters to use?

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Re: Ju-87 dive bombers v B-17 Flying Fortresses?

#7

Post by Erich » 18 Jul 2008, 23:07

the answer is a definitve NO the Ju 87 was never used in air to air bombings nor attack heavy bomber pulks. It was not equipped to do so nor did the pilots/crews have any training is such tactics. LW craft single engines from JG 1 and 11 used single bombs in the spring and summer of 43 with little success. you can imagine with several hundred LW fighters twin and single engine that the US bomber crews would of come up with really bizzarre sightings and yes it happened clear into 1944, even when the LW was thining out due to attrition. In 1943 there was no shrotage of LW trained pilots nor lack of fuels

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Re: Ju-87 dive bombers v B-17 Flying Fortresses?

#8

Post by Bob Izzard » 19 Jul 2008, 06:22

As regards the He100s, I recall reading somewhere that most, if not all, of those not exported to Japan were assigned to defence of the Heinkel factory.

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Re: Ju-87 dive bombers v B-17 Flying Fortresses?

#9

Post by kriegsmarine221 » 22 Dec 2008, 09:45

redcoat wrote:
BillD53A wrote:The maximum altitude of a Ju87 was just above 26,000 feet. It was designed to do its job at 15000 feet. It might have been able to go higher but it would not have been very useful at the altitudes the Americans flew. The B24 Liberator could fly higher, but they became hard to control above 24000 feet. The B17s flew at 26000 feet or higher. I dont think a Ju87 could have gone much higher than that.
Another reason it never happened was the difference in speed between the two aircraft. The B17G had a top speed of 287mph and a cruising speed of 185 mph. while the Ju 87 only had a top speed of 190mph and a cruising speed of 118mph.
There was little to no chance of the Ju 87 being able to get into position above and ahead of the US bomber formation
how can a b-17 be fastter than a ju-87 the ju-87 is smaller and its engine was more powerful. the b-17 is huge and lumbering how can it outrun a stuka

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Re: Ju-87 dive bombers v B-17 Flying Fortresses?

#10

Post by Bob Izzard » 22 Dec 2008, 11:35

B17F - 4x 1200hp Wright Cyclone R-1820-97 radials
Maximum speed 325 mph, ceiling 37,500ft

B24D - 4x 1200hp Pratt & Whitney R-1830-43/65 radials
Maximum speed 303 mph, ceiling 32,000ft

Ju87D - 1x 1400hp Junkers Jumo 211J-1 V12
Maximum speed 255 mph, ceiling 23,950ft


Operating altitude of B17 was generally over 32,000? feet - well above the ceiling of the Stuka
Even the British 'heavies' - Lancaster, Halifax and Stirling - could outpace the Stuka in level flight. However, these types had a lower ceiling than the Stuka, theoretically leaving them vulnerable to Stukas attacking from above as part of the 'Wild Boar' defence system

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Re: Ju-87 dive bombers v B-17 Flying Fortresses?

#11

Post by Kar43 » 22 Dec 2008, 17:11

phylo_roadking wrote:Actually on Mission 115 - the second Schweinfurt mission on October 14th - post-mission debriefings reported Ju-87s, Fw-189 tactical reconnaissance aircraft and even the experimental He- 100 fighter as having been spotted attacking! :lol: :lol: :lol:
In Martin Caidin's book on the October 14th raid, "Black Thursday," he includes these post-mission debriefings. The He-100 was called the "He-113." Some bomber crewmen said they were attacked by Ju-87 dive bombers and seemingly every plane the Luftwaffe possessed. As I recall, one crewman was quoted as saying, "They were recognizable as the He-113's. They were flown by green kids and got the hell shot out of them."

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Re: Ju-87 dive bombers v B-17 Flying Fortresses?

#12

Post by Cantankerous » 10 Jun 2022, 18:14

Kar43 wrote:
22 Dec 2008, 17:11
phylo_roadking wrote:Actually on Mission 115 - the second Schweinfurt mission on October 14th - post-mission debriefings reported Ju-87s, Fw-189 tactical reconnaissance aircraft and even the experimental He- 100 fighter as having been spotted attacking! :lol: :lol: :lol:
In Martin Caidin's book on the October 14th raid, "Black Thursday," he includes these post-mission debriefings. The He-100 was called the "He-113." Some bomber crewmen said they were attacked by Ju-87 dive bombers and seemingly every plane the Luftwaffe possessed. As I recall, one crewman was quoted as saying, "They were recognizable as the He-113's. They were flown by green kids and got the hell shot out of them."
He 113 was a propaganda designation by the RLM for the Heinkel He 100D (aka He 100A-0).

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