Messerschmitt Me 262 request

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Karl
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Re: Messerschmitt Me 262 request

Post by Karl » 19 May 2009 13:57

it is (and still is) a toss up between the gloucester and 262 then - dpending upon your choice of definition...

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Ome_Joop
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Re: Messerschmitt Me 262 request

Post by Ome_Joop » 19 May 2009 14:39

Small list of first jet flights (depending on definition of jet engine):

Coandă-1910 - 16 December 1910
He-178 - 27 August 1939
Caproni Campini N.1 - 27 August 1940
He-280 - 30 March 1941
Gloster E.28/39 - 15 May 1941
Me-262 - 18 july 1942
P-59 - 1 October 1942
Gloster Meteor - 5 March 1943
P-80 - 8 January 1944
Nakajima J9Y - 7 August 1945

Maybe someone else has something to add?

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phylo_roadking
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Re: Messerschmitt Me 262 request

Post by phylo_roadking » 19 May 2009 15:10

The question of which was "operational" first, the Meteor or the Me262 was put to bed in a thread here about six months ago IIRC.

The Me262 did make "kills" with EKdo 262...but the aircraft wasn't "operational", EKdo 262 was a trialling Kommando with a mix of preprdouction aircraft like the V8 prototype, the first Me262 to be fully armed, and early A-1a aircraft; and the kills were made when its ex-Zerstorer pilots were developing tactics for the new fast fighter.

What was intended to be the first "operational" LW unit was KG51 "Edewiess"; conversion began in May 1944, and two months later, in July, with the unit partly converted, what aircraft and pilots were ready...9 A-2a's...were sent to France as Eins. Kdo. Schenk...

HOWEVER - the Meteor was rostered as "operational" FIRST - No. 616 Sqn, RAF...
On 12 July 1944 the unit became the first RAF squadron to receive jet equipment in the form of Gloster Meteor I fighters. The first Meteor operational sortie was on 27 July from RAF Manston when it intercepted V-1 flying bombs launched against southern England. The first victories came on 4 August when one V1 was tipped over after a pilot's cannon jammed and another was shot down. The loss rate of the still unproven Meteor I was high, with three being written off in non-combat incidents between 15 and 29 August. Re-equipment with improved Meteor III's began in January 1945 and in February a detachment was deployed to Melsbroek near Brussels in Belgium. It was intended as a defence against Me 262's but in the event did not ever face them. In early April the complete squadron moved to Gilze-Rijen in the Netherlands, commencing ground attack sorties on 16 April. The squadron was disbanded at Lubeck West Germany on 29 August 1945
It was on the RAF roster as fully operational, pilots already converted to type etc. as of the 12th of July :wink: it just wasn't actually given its first operational sortie for another 15 days :wink:

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Ome_Joop
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Re: Messerschmitt Me 262 request

Post by Ome_Joop » 19 May 2009 19:44

The Me262 did make "kills" with EKdo 262...but the aircraft wasn't "operational", EKdo 262 was a trialling Kommando
I think a point was made in that argument (must be by Kurfurst in that post of 6 months ago) that the Me-262 was operational (Erprobungskommando 262 used them operational as they were involved in military operations by intercepting recon aircraft) but EKdo 262 was not the first operational jet squadron as that was No. 616 Sqn, RAF.

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phylo_roadking
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Re: Messerschmitt Me 262 request

Post by phylo_roadking » 19 May 2009 19:50

The counterpoint however was that as EKdo 262 was a trialling unit; the aircraft MAY have been carrying out combat sorties - but weren't "operational". Kurfust couldn't get his head round the fact that "operational" has a very specific meaning in military terms.

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Ome_Joop
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Re: Messerschmitt Me 262 request

Post by Ome_Joop » 19 May 2009 22:17

Indeed it has a very specific meaning in military terms!
Similar explanations however according to different dictionaries:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/operational
2. Military. a. of, pertaining to, or involved in military operations.
b. on active service or combat duty: All units of the command are operational.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/operational
3 a: of, engaged in, or connected with execution of military or naval operations in campaign or battle
b: ready for or in condition to undertake a destined function
So yes it was like i just posted earlier operational, as it was certainly involved in Military operations (as in Defending the Reich).

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phylo_roadking
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Re: Messerschmitt Me 262 request

Post by phylo_roadking » 20 May 2009 01:49

So yes it was like i just posted earlier operational, as it was certainly involved in Military operations (as in Defending the Reich).
As I said earlier in this thread, at

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 9&start=45

And later at

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 5#p1260870

and for a few posts beyond that...the military aviation definition of "operational" is an institutional status definition, not a definition of actual use; which by definition trial and prototype aircraft can never be "operational"...no matter how they are used for/what is done with them :wink:

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Ome_Joop
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Re: Messerschmitt Me 262 request

Post by Ome_Joop » 20 May 2009 13:59

Yes i've seen those posts and i can only say those are your definitions (Dictionary seems to think differently and so do I).

Example VMX-22.
VMX-22 Marine Tiltrotor Operational Test and Evaluation Squadron Twenty-Two , was activated 28 August 2003 and Its mission is to conduct operational testing and evaluation of the MV/CV-22 "Osprey" and future tiltrotor systems.
VMX-22 is slated to operate up to 16 aircraft, including 4 for operational evaluation.
Meaning that the squadron institutional status is: operational....no matter how they are used for/what is done with them :wink:

And so you say that ErprobungsKommando 262 was clearly operational as it was an operational test and evaluation unit flying operational missions in Me-262.

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Timber
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Re: Messerschmitt Me 262 request

Post by Timber » 27 May 2009 01:20

When something enters operational status within the military, large or small, then that means it is actively being used against the enemy. In the case of the EKdo 262, we're talking about a small operational status.

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phylo_roadking
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Re: Messerschmitt Me 262 request

Post by phylo_roadking » 19 Jun 2009 14:34

Yes i've seen those posts and i can only say those are your definitions (Dictionary seems to think differently and so do I).
...so I thought it was best to go direct to the people who know :wink: Though it's taken them a while to come back to me; courtesy of the RAF Museum, Hendon - its primary meaning...
it is a unit which is in theory full trained and up to strength in men and equipment, or in practice one in which the efficiency and equipment and manning levels are adequate to undertake their intended duties.
Its secondary meaning in RAF terms is
it is a unit which is employed on duties which are intended to engage the enemy

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Re: Messerschmitt Me 262 request

Post by Timespanr » 28 Sep 2009 01:04

For your Info & possible interest: Types of Me-262s (Basics)
Me-262V-1 thru V-12 PT PF(1) to JF(2)
Me-262S-xx PT JF(2)
Me-262A-0 Pre Production JF(2)
Me-262A-1a Production Fighter JF(2)
Me-262A-1a U1 JF(2) add 2 addtional Guns
Me-262A-1a U2 JNF(2) (1each AC) V 056
Me-262A-1a U3 JRCN(2) armed (1) or (2) 30mm G & 2 x Rb 50/30 Camera's or (1) Rb 30/30 Camera or
(1) Rb 75/30 Camera
Me-262A-1a U4 JFT(2) armed with (1) 5-0cm nose cannon
Me-262A-1a R7 JF(2) add Rkts
Me-262A-1b Jabo JAF(2) add Bomb Racks for (24) R4m Rockets & fuel Tanks
Me-262A-2a Production Bomber JB(2) with (2) Schloss 503A-1 Bomb Racks
Me-262A-2a U1 JB(2) (2) built, armed with (2) Mk-108 30mm Gun with space allocated to Bomb
equipment sight etc
Me-262A-2a U2 JBGN(2) add Glas Nose + Bombadier laying down
Me-262A-3a JAF(2) added Armor Plate
Me-262A-4a JRCN(2) (1 or 2 Test AC only - project moved to A-5)
Me-262A-5a JRCN(2) (2each) Mk-108 3-0cm G & 2 x Rb 50/30 Camera's or (1) Rb 30/30 Camera or
(1) Rb 75/30 Camera

Me-262B-1a JFT(2) Training AC (15 Built from JNF production line)
Me-262B-1a U1 JNF(2) w FuG 218 Neptun Radar in nose, FuG 350 Zc Naxor (approx 12 Built)
Me-262B-2a First Production JNF(2) w FuG 218 Neptun Radar in nose, FuG 240 Berlin Radar
Me-262C-1a JFI(2) w tail RATO
Me-262C-2b JFI(2) w tail RATO
Me-262C-3a JFI(2) w Center Line between the wings RATO
Mistel 4 (Me-262A-2a on a Me-262 Bomb)

This is short, sweet, and to the point! No futures considered here!

the collective work of Timespanr@Yahoo.com

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Ironmachine
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Re: Messerschmitt Me 262 request

Post by Ironmachine » 28 Sep 2009 07:24

Me-262C-2b JFI(2) w tail RATO
The Me-262C-2b did not have a "tail RATO", it had BMW-003R engines which were basically a BMW-003 engine with a rocket motor added at the rear for extra thrust.

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Re: Messerschmitt Me 262 request

Post by Timespanr » 28 Sep 2009 23:42

Im am sorry to have to correct you
and will refer you to: http:www.xs4all.nl/~fbonne/warbirds/ww2htmls/messme262.html as a source,
one of but many, should you care to go further into the subject.````
Direct Quote "1 x BMW 717 bi-fuel rocket engine in the tail."
I have three drawins C-1a, C-2b & C-3a that I will gladly post give the understand of where to post them and how?
Thank you very much

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phylo_roadking
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Re: Messerschmitt Me 262 request

Post by phylo_roadking » 29 Sep 2009 00:01

Direct Quote "1 x BMW 717 bi-fuel rocket engine in the tail."
The Me-262c-1a had a HWK 109-509.S1 (sometimes known as a R11/211) engine in its tail; ditto the 2a.

The Me-262C-2b had a BMW 718 bi-fuel rocket engine.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 9&t=150685

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Ironmachine
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Re: Messerschmitt Me 262 request

Post by Ironmachine » 29 Sep 2009 08:39

Timespanr wrote:Im am sorry to have to correct you
and will refer you to: http:www.xs4all.nl/~fbonne/warbirds/ww2htmls/messme262.html as a source,
one of but many, should you care to go further into the subject.````
Direct Quote "1 x BMW 717 bi-fuel rocket engine in the tail."
I'm afraid that you will need something better that internet sources to correct me, because I can show you as many that contradict you. For example, http://www.vectorsite.net/avme262.html:
A single "Me-262C-1a" was built with a Walter booster rocket placed in the tail to improve climb for the interceptor role. A single "Me-262C-2b" was built with "BMW-003R" turbojet engines with built-in rocket boosters for the same purpose. It is said that this particular variant was tricky and frightening to fly.
What about more serious sources, like books? I don't have my books here at the moment, but in http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 5&start=15 phylo_roadking quoted what follows from Green & Swanborough compilation All The World's Fighters:
The Me262C-2b Heimatschutzer II differed essentially in having two BMW 003R units each consisting of a 1.760 lb st (800 kgp) BMW 003A turbojet and a 2,700 lb st (1225 kgp) BMW 718 bi-fuel rocket motor. The prototye of this version, the Me262 V12 Ers, was flown on 8th January 1945 on turbojet power alone, its sole test flight on rocket power taking place on the following 26th March.
Timespanr wrote:I have three drawins C-1a, C-2b & C-3a that I will gladly post give the understand of where to post them and how?
Oh, I also had drawings of the C-2b with no tail rocket engine, but drawings are not reliable sources. I can draw whatever I want. Do you have a photograph?
I have something that is even better. This is a video of the BMW 718 rocket engine test firing on the Me-262C-2b:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~jqmgrdyk/jetpower ... wm003r.mpg
As you can see, it is not in the tail, but integrated with the turbojet. So either you are wrong, or this is not the Me-262C-2b but another variant that is lacking in your list. I would vote for the first option.

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