Id. aerial bombs

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dreamk
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Re: Id. aerial bombs

Post by dreamk » 24 Feb 2020 00:37

630 P.D. (perforante - dirompente) (= piercing - shattering) dirompente is often wrongly translated as fragmentation, while it denotes the use of brisant explosive, with high detonation pressure (as the American RDX). The fact that the shattering effect results in fragmentation of structures, but also, of course, of shells and bombs casings has led to this mistaken translation.
The 630 PD was built around a 381mm naval shell, with brisant explosive inside a a ballistic cap insuring increased penetration before explosion (a base fuse was used as in heavy marine shells), and aimed at attacking heavy armoured battleships and Aircraft carriers.
As a matter of fact almost identical bombs were developed by the French in 1938-40 and produced in limited number for testing, then stocked at the Toulon Arsenal - their trace disappearing after 1942.

Sturm78
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Re: Id. aerial bombs

Post by Sturm78 » 24 Feb 2020 22:28

Thank you very much for your very useful answer, dreamk ... :)

Here, another image of a different Italian heavy bomb. In this case I am not sure about the exact model...

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ROLAND1369
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Re: Id. aerial bombs

Post by ROLAND1369 » 25 Feb 2020 14:37

this appears to be a 500C bomb(later designation)
which had an older designation of C.500T, as seen on the bomb casing. It was an Air Burst Chemical Warfare bomb which weighed 280 Kg of which 30 KG was high explosive and 210 Kg was chemical agent YD(I have no reference for Italian CW designations). Source, ITALIAN BOMBS AND FUZES, Col A D Merriman RE, June 1948.

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Re: Id. aerial bombs

Post by ROLAND1369 » 25 Feb 2020 14:40

Forgot to add drawing.
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dreamk
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Re: Id. aerial bombs

Post by dreamk » 25 Feb 2020 16:06

"C" = Chemiche
"T" (former designation "FZ") = "Ipirite" = "solfuro d'etile biclorurato"
"P" (former designation PV) = "fosgene" (sometimes also designated as PDO as it was produced by a plant in the locality of Piano d'Orte)

The problem is that the US and UK ordnance publications on Italian bombs often made a strange mix of all the intelligence reports they got as a basis for data - for instance \one of these publications gives the 40CP (40kg phosgene bomb) as being loaded...either with diphenyl-chlorarsine or with mustard gas (of course not with phosgene...!).
BTW, arsine seems to have been exclusively used by Italians in artillery shells and not in air-dropped bombs.
A lot of mistakes run on the web concerning italian use of chemical weapons, some of them quite funny: for instance one can find repeated mention of the use of "arsine1367" - after a little research it appears that the origin of this term is in the misreading of a report on the battle of Amba Aradam where the following line appears;
" ....bombardamenti ad arsine: 1367 colpi caricati con questo aggressivo saranno sparati in direzione dell’Amba per un totale di una tonnellata e mezza di aggressivo..."
[arsine bombardment: 1367 shots containing this aggressive toxic have been fired in the direction of the Amba, for a total of 1.5 ton of aggressive toxic]
This shows the level of the sources citing this "arsine 1967....

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Re: Id. aerial bombs

Post by Sturm78 » 25 Feb 2020 22:37

ROLAND1369 wrote
his appears to be a 500C bomb(later designation)
which had an older designation of C.500T, as seen on the bomb casing. It was an Air Burst Chemical Warfare bomb which weighed 280 Kg of which 30 KG was high explosive and 210 Kg was chemical agent YD(I have no reference for Italian CW designations). Source, ITALIAN BOMBS AND FUZES, Col A D Merriman RE, June 1948.
dreamk wrote
The problem is that the US and UK ordnance publications on Italian bombs often made a strange mix of all the intelligence reports they got as a basis for data - for instance \one of these publications gives the 40CP (40kg phosgene bomb) as being loaded...either with diphenyl-chlorarsine or with mustard gas (of course not with phosgene...!).
BTW, arsine seems to have been exclusively used by Italians in artillery shells and not in air-dropped bombs.
A lot of mistakes run on the web concerning italian use of chemical weapons, some of them quite funny: for instance one can find repeated mention of the use of "arsine1367" - after a little research it appears that the origin of this term is in the misreading of a report on the battle of Amba Aradam where the following line appears;
" ....bombardamenti ad arsine: 1367 colpi caricati con questo aggressivo saranno sparati in direzione dell’Amba per un totale di una tonnellata e mezza di aggressivo..."
[arsine bombardment: 1367 shots containing this aggressive toxic have been fired in the direction of the Amba, for a total of 1.5 ton of aggressive toxic]
This shows the level of the sources citing this "arsine 1967....

It looks like a bigger tonnage bomb.....Really a chemical bomb ? :?
Used the Italians these weapons during WW2 ?? :roll:

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ChrisMAg2
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Re: Id. aerial bombs

Post by ChrisMAg2 » 26 Feb 2020 10:50

in addition, to what dreamk and ROLAND1369 said:

"solfuro d'etile biclorurato (ital.)/ Iperite" - "bichlorinated ethyl sulfide (engl.)/ mustard gas, Lost" - "bichloriertes Ethylsulfid (dt.)/ Yperit, Senfgas, Lost [HD]" are [sometimes roughly, mere] synonymes for one and the same.

"Arsine (ital.)" - "Arsin, Arsenwasserstoff (dt.) - "Arsine [SA], hydrogenic arsine (engl.) are synonymes for one and the same agent.

"Phosgen (dt.), Phosgene (engl.), fosgene (ital.), Carbonylchlorid, Diphosgen (dt.), Carbonylchloride (engl.) [CG]" are synonymes for one and the same agent.

[HD / SA / CG] are (NATO) code for these agents.

The above mentioned agents are known since ww1.

While Italy had the "C" (= chemical [engl.], Chem. = chemisch/ Chemikalie [dt.]) and a code for the agent, the Germans marked their grenades/ bombs with the "C / Chem" and the categorie/ class of the agents (Gelbkreuz = Hautkampfstoff (skin toxin), Weisskreuz = Augenkampfstoff (eye toxin), Grünkreuz = Nasen-, Rachenkampstoff (Nose, Pharynx toxin), except for blood toxins (e.g. Arsin).
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Christian M. Aguilar

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ChrisMAg2
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Re: Id. aerial bombs

Post by ChrisMAg2 » 26 Feb 2020 10:58

Sturm78 wrote:
25 Feb 2020 22:37
...
Used the Italians these weapons during WW2 ?? :roll:

Sturm78
Not in ww2, but in their campaign against their Abessinia (today's Ethiopia) colony in 1937.

All powers of ww2 had stocks for chemical warfare. But AFAIK with exception of above, nobody realy used it (openly).
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Christian M. Aguilar

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Re: Id. aerial bombs

Post by ROLAND1369 » 27 Feb 2020 14:23

Re #501 Post 25 Feb 2020, 23:37 Remember that these ar thin walled bombs in order of facilitate their fracture to spread the chemical agent. They were loaded with a small amount of explosive and a larger amount of chemical agent which weighs less than metal.

Sturm78
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Re: Id. aerial bombs

Post by Sturm78 » 28 Feb 2020 09:47

ROLAND1369 wrote
Re #501 Post 25 Feb 2020, 23:37 Remember that these ar thin walled bombs in order of facilitate their fracture to spread the chemical agent. They were loaded with a small amount of explosive and a larger amount of chemical agent which weighs less than metal.
Well, possibly you are right...
I don't know when that picture was taken. Perhaps it was taken during the Abyssinian war.
But I guess later, during World War II, these bombs would be stored in bomb depots and yet the photo seems to be taken in campaign.... :?

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Re: Id. aerial bombs

Post by Sturm78 » 06 Mar 2020 18:41

Hi all,

An image from Ebay. These bombs seems to have a white nose and two bicolor bands....Any idea ?

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Grzesio
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Re: Id. aerial bombs

Post by Grzesio » 07 Mar 2020 15:39

Well, the only thing with such two colour rings that comes to my mind in this case is a KC 250 chemical bomb with Gruenring Gelb filling, marked with adjacent yellow and green rings (it would be KC 250 GnGb). But in this case, the green ring, i.e. the darker one, should be in front (or at least it was on 15 cm WGr 41 wKh GnGb chemical rockets).
Also the white (?) nose does not fit here...

Sturm78
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Re: Id. aerial bombs

Post by Sturm78 » 07 Mar 2020 20:25

Thank you very much for your help, Grzesio... :wink:

I never have seen one of this chemical bombs...

Here, some images from Ebay:

Image 1: I think SC250
Image 2: I think SC50/SD70...as usual I cannot differenciate between both in almost none wartime image...

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Sturm78
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Re: Id. aerial bombs

Post by Sturm78 » 14 Mar 2020 11:42

Hi all,

An image from Alamy website I think SC50 bombs, probably

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Sturm78
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Re: Id. aerial bombs

Post by Sturm78 » 20 Mar 2020 13:02

Hi all,

Italian bombs captured by the Italians in Yugoslavia. I suppose that Yugoslavia bought Italian bombs for his SM79 bombers delivered in 1939.
I think 50T or 100T bombs....

Image from LUCE archive
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