Pilot information and Berlin Airfield April 1945

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Larry D.
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Re: Pilot information and Berlin Airfield April 1945

Postby Larry D. » 21 Jul 2010 00:06

Here is a much more detailed account of Fliegergruppe z.b.V. 7 that later became Fliegergeschwader z.b.V. 7. I wrote it and you will find full sourcing in the footnotes. It's purpose was to support anti-partisan operations in the East that fell under the command and control of the Kommandostab/RF-SS:

http://www.wiki.luftwaffedata.co.uk/wik ... r_z.b.V._7

The aircraft were used for combat (bombing and strafing), liaison, courier, transport and med-evac. All personnel were Luftwaffe except for a few SS personnel who acted in a liaison role between the SS Befehlshaber für Bandenbekämpfung and subordinate commands under his control.

It's a very interesting unit because it was unconventional and remains relatively unknown.

Larry D.

stellung
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Re: Pilot information and Berlin Airfield April 1945

Postby stellung » 21 Jul 2010 01:32

All research begins with questions.

A document was located in the files of Heinrich Mueller by the Americans. It is dated 20. April 1945.

"Betr.: Fuehrersonderreise nach Barcelona"

Among those listed for distribution of copies:

"I./K.G. 200 Kdr. 2. Ausf."


The way to any kind of proof begins with comprehensive research.

projectgreywolf
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Re: Pilot information and Berlin Airfield April 1945

Postby projectgreywolf » 21 Jul 2010 12:02

Sadly this document comes from Gregory Douglas and the 1948 interrogation of Gestapo Mueller. It's very likely it's a fake.

Larry D.
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Re: Pilot information and Berlin Airfield April 1945

Postby Larry D. » 21 Jul 2010 12:39

So what is the issue with I./KG 200? That's the Gruppe that had the long-range aircraft (Ju 290s) that would have been tasked to fly A.H. to Barcelona. The SS under Himmler was responsible for arranging A.H.'s transportation and personal security.

See:
Sweeting, C.G. Hitler’s Squadron: The Fuehrer’s Personal Aircraft and Transport Unit, 1933-45. WashDC: Brassey’s, 2001. ISBN: 1-57488-287-2. Pb with laminated cover (oversize). 184p. Illus. Dwgs. Map. Tables. Appendices. Glossary. Source notes. Index.
Thomas, Geoffrey J. and Barry Ketley. KG 200: The Luftwaffe’s Most Secret Unit. Crowborough: Hikoki Publications, 2003. ISBN: 1 902109 33 3. Hb (oversize). Dj. 192p. Heavily illus. Color profiles. Appendices.

projectgreywolf
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Re: Pilot information and Berlin Airfield April 1945

Postby projectgreywolf » 21 Jul 2010 19:20

I was very impressed by Sweeting's book, until you get to the end of the war when he accepts totally the veracity of Douglas's "1948 interrogation of Gestapo Mueller" and shows the above discussed document.
The Ju 290 wasn't the only long range aircarft as I'm sure Larry D. Knows. FW 200 Condor, BV 222, JU 252/352 all had the range. As well as the much vaunted JU 390.
Douglas is also known as P.W Stahl who wrote his own book on KG 200 (published in 1966) . His son also appears to use the pseudonym Gregory Douglas.
Thomas and kettley's book doesn't (as far as I remember) rely on stahl's "documentation" . There's a lot of debate about Douglas on the 'net.

Larry D.
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Re: Pilot information and Berlin Airfield April 1945

Postby Larry D. » 21 Jul 2010 19:59

We learn every day even at my age (don't ask :roll: ). I was totally unaware that Peter Stahl use a nom d'plume, in this case Douglas, or that he even had a son. As for Heinrich Müller, has the riddle of his post-Berlin disappearance ever been definitively resolved? Did he "disappear" in the rubble of Berlin, or did he surrender to the Russians and ingratiate himself by "telling all"? How could Peter Stahl possibly "interview" Müller in 1948 when the former Gestapo chief was either dead or in the clutches of the NKVD in Moscow? This is not a subject I have immersed myself in or even casually studied, so that's about the extent of my knowledge of it. Anyway, the Stahl-Müller interview sounds like a bunch of horse feathers to me.

projectgreywolf
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Re: Pilot information and Berlin Airfield April 1945

Postby projectgreywolf » 21 Jul 2010 20:23

Hi Larry.
The Mueller interview was supposed to be carried out by OSS/CIA and was based on (unpublished) files Stahl/douglas somehow got out of the CIA. (They've always denied it. Horse feathers sounds right to me as well).
I have a source, Hans Ulrich-Rudel, no less, in personal papers post war auctioned last year, who gives Mueller as one of his contacts in Cordoba, Argentina in 1955. I have other sources who say he lived there under the name of Ortega.The Germans dug up his "grave" in 1963 (SEE ATTACHED) and found the remains of three bodies in the grave. None of them matched Mueller.
It's possible he bugged out to Argentina, like so many others, post ww2.

I'm still working on Baumgart. I now know (From Holocaust research sources) he was released from Prison in Warsaw on 13.12.1951 and gave his job title as "aviation instructor". The guy may have been a liar but he was at least real.
All the best.

projectgreywolf
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Re: Pilot information and Berlin Airfield April 1945

Postby projectgreywolf » 21 Jul 2010 20:26

's grave.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Larry D.
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Re: Pilot information and Berlin Airfield April 1945

Postby Larry D. » 22 Jul 2010 00:03

Thanks for filling us in on that. I agree that anything was possible in postwar Argentina, Paraguay, Chile, Bolivia, Peru and Brazil. They found a former Ustasha Satnik (captain) with connections to the Jasenovac camp in an Argentine mountain town just 3 or 4 years ago and extradited him to Croatia, but he may have finally been the last of the World War II outlaws from that area. As for Müller, my personal belief is that he didn't make it out of Berlin, although I have nothing to anchor that on. The OSS, CIC and CIA papers for that 1945-50 period are all open now and scholars and researchers have gone through them with a fine tooth comb. If that CIA-Müller interview really existed, I am pretty confident that we would have heard about it by now.

Larry

projectgreywolf
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Re: Pilot information and Berlin Airfield April 1945

Postby projectgreywolf » 23 Jul 2010 10:25

Hi Larry, could I ask a favour. Amongst your Luftwaffe officer lists is there a "Franz "oswaldo" Ruffinengo?
His name may have been hispanicised later.
I'd be grateful.
Thanks

Larry D.
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Re: Pilot information and Berlin Airfield April 1945

Postby Larry D. » 23 Jul 2010 13:10

Sure. I only have 5 names beginning with RUFF.....:

RUFF, Alfred.
RUFFER, Rudolf-Heinz.
RUFFING, Wilhelm.
RÜFFLER, Erich.
RÜFFLER, Helmut.

I also checked the 1 August 1944 DAL and there was nothing there, either. I should note that some 123,000 served as Luftwaffe officers at one time or another from 1935 to 1945. My list contains 31,400 names and the DAL about another 12,000 that are not also included in my list (mostly Leutnante). So that leave a shortfall of 79,600 names, of which an estimated 94% were Offiziere d.Reserve and Kriegsoffiziere. Since these were not regular officers, but rather officer reservists and NCOs commissioned "for the duration" (i.e., temporaries), they did not make it into any of the Luftwaffenpersonalamt records that survived the war, or put differently and more coherently, LPA personnel lists containing their names did not survive the war. However, there are probably Karteikarten cards for the majority of them at BA-MA, but one would have to go there in person with a previously arranged letter of permission to search through them. The Hispanicising of the last name would automatically preclude them doing it for you.

L.

projectgreywolf
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Re: Pilot information and Berlin Airfield April 1945

Postby projectgreywolf » 23 Jul 2010 15:49

Thanks very much Larry.
I'm Gerrard by the way.

Simon Gunson
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Re: Pilot information and Berlin Airfield April 1945

Postby Simon Gunson » 25 Jul 2010 02:19

TEN wrote:That is not quite the same as trying to establish its own branch of the Luftwaffe. They did not have enough acces to the Verbindungsflüge from the Luftwaffe and tried to set up their own courier service.


Fliegergeschwader z.b.V. 7, commander Obstlt Heinz Heinsius, 2.12.43 - 10.1.45, Formed 7.42 in Berlin(?) as Fliegergruppe z.b.V. 7 with:

Stab/Fl.Gr.zbV 7 new
1./Fl.Gr.zbV 7 new
2./Fl.Gr.zbV 7 new
3./Fl.Gr.zbV 7 new
4./Fl.Gr.zbV 7 new
5./Fl.Gr.zbV 7 new
6./Fl.Gr.zbV 7 new

The Gruppe reported directly to Reichsführer SS Himmler, and controlled the 6 Verbindungsstaffeln der Waffen-SS und der Polizei (1. - 6./Fl.Gr.zbV 7). An Ergänzungsstaffel was formed 1.11.42, and was based at Deutsch Brod (at least during 1944).

On 29.2.44 renamed Fliegergeschwader zbV 7, now with:
Stab/Fl.G.zbV 7 from Stab/Fl.Gr.zbV 7
1./Fl.G.zbV 7 from 1./Fl.Gr.zbV 7
2./Fl.G.zbV 7 from 2./Fl.Gr.zbV 7
3./Fl.G.zbV 7 from 3./Fl.Gr.zbV 7
4./Fl.G.zbV 7 from 4./Fl.Gr.zbV 7
5./Fl.G.zbV 7 from 5./Fl.Gr.zbV 7
6./Fl.G.zbV 7 from 6./Fl.Gr.zbV 7
7./Fl.G.zbV 7 new
Erg.Sta./Fl.G.zbV 7 from Erg.Sta./Fl.Gr.zbV 7

The lack of archival records does not prove any particular SS individual never existed. I know of a couple of instances where identities are corroborated from alternate sources yet not recorded by Bundesarchiv. Gehlenorg after the war expunged many SS records so that former SS individuals could be employed for the CIA. In other cases identies were concealed to prevent disclosure of sensitive matters.

In his book "Deliverance Day," Michael Selzer wrote that the American liberators marched 122 SS soldiers, who had surrendered at the Dachau Concentration Camp, to a wall and with their hands up, shot them with machine guns. Included was the alleged Commander of the SS garrison, Lt. Heinrich Skodzensky, who had only moments before surrendered the camp to Colonel Jackson of the 45th Thunderbird division, saying in English, "I am the commanding officer of the guard in the camp, and I herewith surrender the camp to your forces." Skodzensky was shot along with the others, dressed in his immaculate black SS uniform, according to Selzer's account.

Robert H. Abzug wrote in his book "Inside the Vicious Heart" that the American soldiers were enraged by Skodzensky's clean uniform and shined boots in these squalid surroundings. However, no records of an SS officer named Skodzensky have ever been found and the story of 122 SS soldiers being shot has never been corroborated by any of the American soldiers who were there. The Dachau Memorial Site has no record of Lt. Heinrich Skodzensky in its archive and there is no record of a man named Heinrich Skodzensky in the Berlin Bundesarchiv.

Simon Gunson
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Re: Pilot information and Berlin Airfield April 1945

Postby Simon Gunson » 25 Jul 2010 03:01

projectgreywolf wrote:I'm looking for information on a Luftwaffe Pilot (Fltt Lt?_ Arthur Friederich Angellotte-mackensen. Last know flying JU52's out of Berlin late in April 1945.

Also on Flt Kpt Peter Erich Baumgart Awarded Knight’s cross 31/7/1943 and also allegedly with 128 kills over crete, Italy, North Africa and in the East.
Again possibly flying Ju52 out of Berlin late in April 1945 from Hohenzollerndamm.
Does anyone have any idea if this part of Berlin had a Luftwaffe airfield, even a temporary one in April 1945?

Thanks very much


Hohenzollerndamm is two long straight stretches of road about 6 kilometres Southwest from the Hitler bunker in an area i would have imagined to be under Soviet control by 30 April 1945.

Operation Heldenklau

Starting 24 april 1945, floatplane Ju-52s of 3./I./TG 1 from Pütnitz flew Naval reservists to Lake Havel. These aircraft and KG200 Bv138 of KG200 from Denmark were operating flights to Peacock Island in the lake until at least 1 May 1945 to evacuate the wounded and VIPs.

Mjr MAUß, CO of the „Großraumtransportstaffel“ (~large capacity tranport squadron) commanded Squadron „Mauß“ which flew a number of Ju-352 operations in and out of Berlin until 29 April. This unit lost four Ju-352 and one Arado 232 in these operations.

Hanna Reitsch wrote a letter to her brother from her internment mentioning how as she was about to depart Berlin that she saw a Ju-52 with engines running at the East west axis runway near the Reichs Chancellery. These Ju-52 were flying in SS troops and naval reservists from Rerik. The Ju-52 aircraft were all thought to be from Fuhrer des Fliegers. Two Fw200 condors and one Ju-290 9V + BK, of F.d.F also flew missions in and out of Berlin up to the very last moments. Flights were also flown to Tutow airfield and Gatow.

The last land plane out of Gatow with passengers was a Ju-352, stkz KT + VJ flown by ObLt Schultz. There is a suggestion that other aircraft got in after this but none waited for passengers to fly out.

Larry D.
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Re: Pilot information and Berlin Airfield April 1945

Postby Larry D. » 25 Jul 2010 12:16

Thanks for your contribution, Kiwikid. Your account of Unternehmen Heldenklau seems to be a collection of personal recollections, not all of which had stood the test of historical investigation since 1945. IMHO, I think anyone seriously interested in the subject of aircraft flown in and out of Berlin from 20 April to 2 May 1945 needs to thoroughly explore the English and German language literature covering the topic so they can assemble all the facts before coming to some conclusion. This is a difficult process because what is known is a mix of fact, rumor, conjecture and opinion. It's tedious and challenging to go through all that has been written and said and separate the wheat from the chaff. Those were chaotic days where few people knew with certainty what was going on just a city block or two from them because telephone lines were down and movement was almost impossible. But worst of all, few documents survived and what facts we have come from the piecing together of entries in a few Flugbücher and the postwar statements of a few air crew personnel, all of which is terribly incomplete.


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