Pilot information and Berlin Airfield April 1945

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Simon Gunson
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Re: Pilot information and Berlin Airfield April 1945

#31

Post by Simon Gunson » 25 Jul 2010, 14:31

Larry D. wrote:Thanks for your contribution, Kiwikid. Your account of Unternehmen Heldenklau seems to be a collection of personal recollections, not all of which had stood the test of historical investigation since 1945. IMHO, I think anyone seriously interested in the subject of aircraft flown in and out of Berlin from 20 April to 2 May 1945 needs to thoroughly explore the English and German language literature covering the topic so they can assemble all the facts before coming to some conclusion. This is a difficult process because what is known is a mix of fact, rumor, conjecture and opinion. It's tedious and challenging to go through all that has been written and said and separate the wheat from the chaff. Those were chaotic days where few people knew with certainty what was going on just a city block or two from them because telephone lines were down and movement was almost impossible. But worst of all, few documents survived and what facts we have come from the piecing together of entries in a few Flugbücher and the postwar statements of a few air crew personnel, all of which is terribly incomplete.
In that case here's some worthwhile source material to read about Kreigsmariene reservests flown into Berlin late in April 1945:

„Unternehmen Reichskanzlei“, by Günther OTT in Jet & Prop 04/95; Verlag Heinz Nickel in Zweibrücken, 1995

„Das bittere Ende der Luftwaffe“, by Ulrich SAFT; Militärbuchverlag Saft in Walsrode, 1992-94

„Schiffsschicksale Ostsee 1945“, by Wolfgang MÜLLER; Koehlers Verlagsgesellschaft in Hamburg, 1996

„Gesunken und Verschollen“, by Wolfgang MÜLLER and Reinhard KRAMER; Koehlers Verlagsgesellschft in Hamburg, 1994-96

„Die letzten Kriegstage; Ostseehäfen 1945“, by Heinz SCHÖN; Motorbuchverlag in Stuttgart, 1995

„Die deutschen Kriegsschiffe 1815 - 1945“ Band 8/1, by Erich GRÖNER; Bernard & Graefe Verlag in Bonn,

Larry D.
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Re: Pilot information and Berlin Airfield April 1945

#32

Post by Larry D. » 25 Jul 2010, 15:18

Thanks for your list. Yes, those are important, key contributions to trying to get a handle on the subject. I have the first two plus some other articles from Jet & Prop and Flugzeug magazin, including one or two written by Georg Schlaug, a well-respected historical researcher and author of this matter.


Simon Gunson
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Hitler's skull in KGB archives was female

#33

Post by Simon Gunson » 25 Jul 2010, 15:51

Hmm just came across this item which makes me think twice about claims that Hitler escaped. I have never bought into that claim before and always believed that the Soviets found his body... No longer so sure of myself.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8281839.stm

Larry D.
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Re: Pilot information and Berlin Airfield April 1945

#34

Post by Larry D. » 25 Jul 2010, 16:48

Interesting article. But A.H. was too much the megalomaniac to have escaped, fled somewhere and remained silent and undiscovered during the postwar period.

This is starting to stray off-topic so we had best return to aircraft in and out of Berlin before a moderator intervenes.

projectgreywolf
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Re: Pilot information and Berlin Airfield April 1945

#35

Post by projectgreywolf » 25 Jul 2010, 22:33

I'd love dates/times on those flights kiwikid (simon?)

Simon Gunson
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Re: Pilot information and Berlin Airfield April 1945

#36

Post by Simon Gunson » 26 Jul 2010, 14:01

projectgreywolf wrote:I'd love dates/times on those flights kiwikid (simon?)
Yup Simon it is... I can't give any time date detail for flights by F.d.F, or KG200 Bv138 however there are inferences of flights out with passengers until 29 April and seaplanes at Lake Havel until night of 1/2 May.

23 April, Templehoff-Berlin lost to Soviet forces

24 April, KG.zbV2 Lufttransport Gruppe 4 (“Großraumtransportstaffel”) II/TG4, which was stationed in Großenbrode, lost 4 Ju 352‘s and 1 Ar 232 resupplying Wenk’s encircled 9th Army

24 April midnight, Kpt z.S. Assmann informed OKM via phone about a Führerbefehl, Operation Heldenklau meaning 'grabbing the heroes'. Hitler had given an order for VAdm VOß to transport several batallions Kriegsmarine reservists, with infantry weapons, to Berlin.

Noon 25 April, Operation Reichskanzlei and Operation Berlin were ordered. 1.FuMLAbt under command of F.Kpt Bormann (brother of Hitler’s deputy) were ordered to Berlin to form a Fuhrer bodyguard.They were transported from Puttgarden /Isle of Fehmarn to an airport near Rerik. On arriving at Rerik, they found no aircraft available. 1.FuMLAbt were ordered to sleep in a nearby hangar/shed. However at 22:00 hrs new orders were given.

Night 25th/26th of April 1945, Ju 52 floatplanes of 3./I./TG 1 convey 175 men of Stralsund Alarm Batallion (1.SStR) from Pütnitz (near Ribnitz) to Havelsee, Berlin

Night 25th April, KG.zbV2, Lufttransport Gruppe 4 (“Großraumtransportstaffel”) Ju-352s arrived at Tutow air-field at about 22:00.

26th of April 1945, 1.FuMLAbt under command of F.Kpt Bormann were flown to the Ost-West-Achse by aircraft of the Fuhrer des Fliegers (F.d.F.). These aircraft included Fw-200 „Condor“ (CE + IC) piloted by Hptm Joachim Hubner, a Ju-290 (9V + BK), piloted by Lt Wagner and Ju-352 (KT + VJ), piloted by Olt Schultz and a fourth aircraft. Olt z.S. Clemens Zuborg of the naval reserve and then adjutant in the staff of the alarm-batallion reported two Ju-352 landed at Ost-West-Achse near the Reichskanzlei, which they had to defend.

26 April, between 01:35 hrs and 02:35 hrs, Ju-352 depart Tutow for Berlin-Gatow, conveying 288 men, part of the 1.SStR, each carrying 40 infantry per aircraft and 4 tonnes of weaponry/ammunition.

Tutow 01:35 departure OFw Herbert Schultz (G6 + ?X) was the first to take-off from Tutow. His plane came under heavy attack from all types of weapons. It was not possible to fly a full laden Ju 352 with only one engine so OFw Schultz made a forced landing. Somehow, the entire crew managed to escape the explosion of 4 tonnes of Panzerfäuste cargo being carried with the troops. On 29 April they flew back to their unit at Großenbrode.

Tutow - time unknown ? StFw Kurt Becker (G6 + RX) failed to land at Gatow airport, due to heavy anti-aircraft fire. Becker decided to return to Tutow, where he landed a 03:00 hrs. His infantry passengers, including the acting CO of the 1st coy, Kptlt Brandt, were stood down.

Tutow 02:35 hrs - OFw Paul Köhler (G6 + EX) left Tutow but according to some of the passengers, took almost two hours to land in Berlin-Gatow after attempting to land at Berlin Staaken. After 20 minutes on ground at Gatow, Köhler took off for Tutow, where he landed a 05:40.

Night 26th/27th of April 1945 Squadron „Mauß“ Conveyed 476 men of Kreigsmariene alarm Batallion from Rostock to Berlin. The road leading from Waren to Güstrow was used for one day as an airstrip on 27 April.

27 April Hitler learns of Himmler's betrayal. Orders arrest of Himmler and Kammler.

Larry D.
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Re: Pilot information and Berlin Airfield April 1945

#37

Post by Larry D. » 26 Jul 2010, 15:05

I am very skeptical of some of these allegations (see comments below in blue):


Kiwikid wrote:
projectgreywolf wrote:I'd love dates/times on those flights kiwikid (simon?)
Yup Simon it is... I can't give any time date detail for flights by F.d.F, or KG200 Bv138 however there are inferences of flights out with passengers until 29 April and seaplanes at Lake Havel until night of 1/2 May.

23 April, Templehoff-Berlin lost to Soviet forces

24 April, KG.zbV2 Lufttransport Gruppe 4 (“Großraumtransportstaffel”) II/TG4, which was stationed in Großenbrode, lost 4 Ju 352‘s and 1 Ar 232 resupplying Wenk’s encircled 9th Army

I do not believe this involved the use of any airfields in or around Berlin.

24 April midnight, Kpt z.S. Assmann informed OKM via phone about a Führerbefehl, Operation Heldenklau meaning 'grabbing the heroes'. Hitler had given an order for VAdm VOß to transport several batallions Kriegsmarine reservists, with infantry weapons, to Berlin.

Noon 25 April, Operation Reichskanzlei and Operation Berlin were ordered. 1.FuMLAbt under command of F.Kpt Bormann (brother of Hitler’s deputy) were ordered to Berlin to form a Fuhrer bodyguard.They were transported from Puttgarden /Isle of Fehmarn to an airport near Rerik. On arriving at Rerik, they found no aircraft available. 1.FuMLAbt were ordered to sleep in a nearby hangar/shed. However at 22:00 hrs new orders were given.

Night 25th/26th of April 1945, Ju 52 floatplanes of 3./I./TG 1 convey 175 men of Stralsund Alarm Batallion (1.SStR) from Pütnitz (near Ribnitz) to Havelsee, Berlin

Night 25th April, KG.zbV2, Lufttransport Gruppe 4 (“Großraumtransportstaffel”) Ju-352s arrived at Tutow air-field at about 22:00.

26th of April 1945, 1.FuMLAbt under command of F.Kpt Bormann were flown to the Ost-West-Achse by aircraft of the Fuhrer des Fliegers (F.d.F.). These aircraft included Fw-200 „Condor“ (CE + IC) piloted by Hptm Joachim Hubner, a Ju-290 (9V + BK), piloted by Lt Wagner and Ju-352 (KT + VJ), piloted by Olt Schultz and a fourth aircraft. Olt z.S. Clemens Zuborg of the naval reserve and then adjutant in the staff of the alarm-batallion reported two Ju-352 landed at Ost-West-Achse near the Reichskanzlei, which they had to defend.

This one is a real eyebrow raiser. I have read many accounts of the improvised Ost-West Achse landing strip but none to my knowledge ever mentioned large aircraft like Ju 290s and Ju 252s using it. I would have to see some rock-solid multiple confirmation citations before accepting this. If the Fi 156 Störche that used the Ost-West Achse had trouble landing and taking off, then Ju 290/Ju 252 traffic begs believability.

26 April, between 01:35 hrs and 02:35 hrs, Ju-352 depart Tutow for Berlin-Gatow, conveying 288 men, part of the 1.SStR, each carrying 40 infantry per aircraft and 4 tonnes of weaponry/ammunition.

But, is their proof of 7 of so Ju 352s actually landing and off-loading at Gatow in the early morning of 26 April? A number of aircraft started for Berlin-Gatow during that 24-27 April time period but had to turn back because of AA fire and artillery fire on the runways.

Tutow 01:35 departure OFw Herbert Schultz (G6 + ?X) was the first to take-off from Tutow. His plane came under heavy attack from all types of weapons. It was not possible to fly a full laden Ju 352 with only one engine so OFw Schultz made a forced landing. Somehow, the entire crew managed to escape the explosion of 4 tonnes of Panzerfäuste cargo being carried with the troops. On 29 April they flew back to their unit at Großenbrode.

This does not sound like a landing in or around Berlin, but rather north of the Berlin perimeter.

Tutow - time unknown ? StFw Kurt Becker (G6 + RX) failed to land at Gatow airport, due to heavy anti-aircraft fire. Becker decided to return to Tutow, where he landed a 03:00 hrs. His infantry passengers, including the acting CO of the 1st coy, Kptlt Brandt, were stood down.

Tutow 02:35 hrs - OFw Paul Köhler (G6 + EX) left Tutow but according to some of the passengers, took almost two hours to land in Berlin-Gatow after attempting to land at Berlin Staaken. After 20 minutes on ground at Gatow, Köhler took off for Tutow, where he landed a 05:40.

Another claim involving a Berlin-Gatow landing early on the morning of 26 April (I presume) that needs to be verified.

Night 26th/27th of April 1945 Squadron „Mauß“ Conveyed 476 men of Kreigsmariene alarm Batallion from Rostock to Berlin. The road leading from Waren to Güstrow was used for one day as an airstrip on 27 April.

Waren and Güstrow are way to the north of Berlin - check a map.

27 April Hitler learns of Himmler's betrayal. Orders arrest of Himmler and Kammler.

Simon Gunson
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Re: Pilot information and Berlin Airfield April 1945

#38

Post by Simon Gunson » 26 Jul 2010, 21:45

You seem almost venal with rage Larry. Calm down.

These Ju-352 comments are based on witness accounts often by naval reservists who flew on the aircraft themselves. i am only recounting what they have said.

As for whether the East West Axis could accomodate aircraft as big as Ju-290 or Ju-352 you clearly have not read widely enough as you urged me to do. There is an account of a row between Speer and Hitler's chief pilot Hans bauer earlier in April in which Speer vehemently objected to the felling of trees lining the East West Axis for operations by large aircraft.

More in response later but I have to run now. Ciao.
Last edited by Kiwikid on 26 Jul 2010, 22:12, edited 1 time in total.

Simon Gunson
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Re: Pilot information and Berlin Airfield April 1945

#39

Post by Simon Gunson » 26 Jul 2010, 21:47

double post

Larry D.
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Re: Pilot information and Berlin Airfield April 1945

#40

Post by Larry D. » 27 Jul 2010, 00:52

Kiwikid wrote:You seem almost venal with rage Larry. Calm down.

These Ju-352 comments are based on witness accounts often by naval reservists who flew on the aircraft themselves. i am only recounting what they have said.

As for whether the East West Axis could accomodate aircraft as big as Ju-290 or Ju-352 you clearly have not read widely enough as you urged me to do. There is an account of a row between Speer and Hitler's chief pilot Hans bauer earlier in April in which Speer vehemently objected to the felling of trees lining the East West Axis for operations by large aircraft.

More in response later but I have to run now. Ciao.
Hardly angry, Kiwi; just skeptical. Regarding the tree cutting mention above, I sure do recall lots and lots of references to this but that does not necessarily mean any of these big aircraft actually landed on the Ost-West Achse where the trees had been felled. That a landing strip was prepared, I accept. It's the actual landing that I have a problem with.

Adios.

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Re: Pilot information and Berlin Airfield April 1945

#41

Post by Larry D. » 27 Jul 2010, 14:48

Flights to Berlin 25 April – 1 May 1945

Hello Kiwikid: I have re-read all six of the articles dealing with this subject and here is a summary of the findings:

1) the last multi-engine transport flights (a couple of He 111s) were between 0:25 and 4:30 hours in the early morning of 26 April in and out of Berlin-Gatow. It could not be used after that for the reasons I have previously stated. (Jet & Prop 2/1996, pp.50-55)
2) attempts to land multi-engine transport aircraft on the Ost-West-Achse failed and the aircraft were forced to turn back. However, the Ost-West-Achse was extensive used as the drop zone for container (Behälter) dropping. Note that they couldn't even land gliders on the Ost-West-Achse because it was so swept by enemy fire. (Jet & Prop 2/1996, pp.50-55)
3) the air transport of large numbers of Kriegsmarine- and SS- infantry by land aircraft to Berlin 26-27 April referred to in statements by Dönitz and Jodl did not occur. They were planned, but they did not take place. Investigators and researchers have found not one shred of evidence to substantiate any of this. (see Jet & Prop 2/1996, p.53, left column, third and fourth paragraphs)
4) I do not dispute the flying boat flights to Havelsee (Lake Havel). These are well known and documented.
4) the other air transport missions described in these articles either occurred before Berlin-Gatow closed on 26 April or used airfields way outside the Berlin perimeter that were still in German hands.

I have to give myself an "A" on memory, because my recollection of these articles from when I last read them 10 years ago was pretty good. It was only my recollection of when Berlin-Gatow closed (during the day of 26 April) that was a bit off.

Additional Notes and Bibliography:

II./TG 4:
In late November 1944 it was in Germany without aircraft (high probability at Goslar/Harz to the south of Braunschweig) - ordered by OKL this date to turn over all suitable pilots for conversion to fighters. [ULTRA HP8470.]. No mention of it after this date. You misidentified this unit and the unit you should have been referring to was II./KG 4, which moved to Greifswald and Anklam on 22 April and flew some He 111 missions to and over Berlin. A couple of He 111s from II./KG 4 and staging from Rostock were the last twin-engine or larger aircraft to fly into and out of Berlin-Gatow, doing so just after midnight in the early morning hours of 26 April.

I./TG 1:
See: Jet & Prop 2/1996, pp.50-51.

Fliegerstaffel des Führers (F.d.F.):
See: Jet & Prop magazine, Heft (issue) 3/1995 and 4/1995.

Grossraumtransportgruppe:
See: M.Griehl article in Flugzeug magazine, Heft (issue) 1/1994; Jet & Prop magazine, Heft 6/1995, p.44; G.Schlaug article in Jet & Prop 3/1996, p.53.

Griehl, Manfred, “Herkules zieht in den Krieg…” (Ju 252/352 wartime ops), Flugzeug, 1/1994 (2.Teil): 19-23.
Kössler, Karl and A. R. Chapman, “Ein verhängnisvoller Flug” (1./KG 200 Apr 45), Jet & Prop, 6/1995: 44-46.
Ott, Günther, “’Unternehmen Reichskanzlei’” (transport ops to and from Berlin Apr 45), Jet & Prop, 3/1995 (1.Teil): 59-62; 4/1995 (2.Teil): 43-50, 58.
Schlaug, Georg, “Das Abgeworfene muß blitzartig an die Brennpunkte heran!” (transport ops to Berlin Apr/May 45), Jet & Prop, 2/1996 (1.Teil): 50-55.
Schlaug, Georg, “Die eingekesselte 9. Armee braucht dringend Sprit und Munition” (transport ops to Berlin Apr/May 45), Jet & Prop, 3/1996 (2.Teil): 52-54, 58).

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Re: Pilot information and Berlin Airfield April 1945

#42

Post by ju55dk » 05 Aug 2010, 08:46

Larry D. wrote:We learn every day even at my age (don't ask :roll: ). I was totally unaware that Peter Stahl use a nom d'plume, in this case Douglas, or that he even had a son. As for Heinrich Müller, has the riddle of his post-Berlin disappearance ever been definitively resolved? Did he "disappear" in the rubble of Berlin, or did he surrender to the Russians and ingratiate himself by "telling all"? How could Peter Stahl possibly "interview" Müller in 1948 when the former Gestapo chief was either dead or in the clutches of the NKVD in Moscow? This is not a subject I have immersed myself in or even casually studied, so that's about the extent of my knowledge of it. Anyway, the Stahl-Müller interview sounds like a bunch of horse feathers to me.
I must admit that I'm a bit confused here? There was a pilot in the Luftwaffe by the name Peter W. Stahl, wo flew with KG 30. He wrote a book about that, Zwischen Eismeer and Sahara, and also served with I/KG 200 on wich he also wrote a book, Geheimgeschwader KG 200. I did meet him in Germany, were he lived, and got copies of photoes and his Leistungsbuch. So what is the story behind him calling himself another name??

Junker

TuntematonSotilas
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Re: Pilot information and Berlin Airfield April 1945

#43

Post by TuntematonSotilas » 21 Jul 2011, 18:00

Interesting thread! But Larry D, what makes you believe that the Fieseler Storch could have encountered trouble when landing and taking-off at the Berlin-Tiergarten airfield? I don't see any technical nor operational difficulty. I mean, the only difficulty in April 1945 was fire from the Soviet forces, but that was nothing special but a reality for every German aircraft at any other airfield during the final phase of the war, too.

Since, as I was finding out, neither the oh so « scientific » research-results of some decorated Historians nor the best-selling books are trustworthy, and that there is apparently a political will to avoid any further discussion on the topic and to successfully keep the public interest low possibly because of the Walpurgis Night, *grins*, we will probably never know for sure what really happened on those landing-strips in late April 1945. But I found out that there was not just an improvised landing-strip on the Charlottenburger Chaussee, now Strasse des 17. Juni, but a functional, fully operational, completely equipped military airfield Berlin-Tiergarten with most likely several runways. An airfield where aircraft like Fw-200 and Ju-290 etc were also able to land and to be handled, and to take-off again, exposed to enemy-fire, of course. And this capacity has been and is still being intentionally down-played.

I believe that the reported dispute between Albrecht Speer and Hans Bauer was not because of cutting any wooden trees. That was not necessary at all and was not done at the Ost-West-Achse either, to my knowledge. But because of cutting man-made, architectural « trees » along the Charlottenburger Chausssee which were there to demonstrate the glory of the Nazis, as well as removing the famous gas-lanterns which still today bear Speer's name west of the Berlin Victory Column where the original lanterns are still to be found. Trees had been cut, too, yes, for airfield operation inside the Tiergarten. But Speer probably didn't mind that so very much.

I have better than good reason to believe that there was a regular courier-service with mainly Fieseler Storch and some Ju-52 in and out, to the Reichskanzlei, every day, some days not just once. As well I strongly believe that the Operation Reichskanzlei took place indeed on 25/26/27 April 1945, with the 26th being the busiest day. However, I cannot say how many aircraft and of what type came actually through. But still on the 27th, at least two aircraft successfully managed to land at Berlin-Tiergarten, and eventually took-off again, one of them a Ju-52 loaded with SS and ammunition, and evacuating outbound some wounded. Sounds to me pretty much like Operation Reichskanzlei. Again, no operational problem at all to land a Ju-352 on the then Ost-West-Achse. And missing documentation doesn't mean that it didn't take place. Just my 2 Cents.

Larry D.
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Re: Pilot information and Berlin Airfield April 1945

#44

Post by Larry D. » 21 Jul 2011, 19:11

Just my 2 Cents.
Great, T.S. Fresh input is always welcome. Why not document your beliefs using citations from both primary and secondary sources, write it up and post it here? New information that is properly sourced can correct past mistakes and expand our knowledge of World War II events.

L.

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Re: Pilot information and Berlin Airfield April 1945

#45

Post by TuntematonSotilas » 22 Jul 2011, 17:26

Larry D. wrote:
Just my 2 Cents.
Great, T.S. Fresh input is always welcome. Why not document your beliefs using citations from both primary and secondary sources, write it up and post it here? New information that is properly sourced can correct past mistakes and expand our knowledge of World War II events.

L.
Hi Larry, since I'm pretty new to this, I'm first trying to make a test ...
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